New rifle is driving me crazy

G

gundogblue

Guest
I got a new Savage model 16 in .223, with the accu-stock, accu-trigger, and a 24 inch, stainless flutted barrel with a 1 in 9 twist. I've been shooting about 45 yrs, Im never going to win any medals in compitition, but I consider myself a good marksman. For the past 2 1/2 yrs I've been shooting two rifles on a weekly basis, a Savage 10 FP with the HS pricision stock, with a rifle basix trigger in .308, and a target/varmint AR-15 with a WOA upper, 20 inch stainless match barrel, and a CMC trigger, both of these rifles are much heavier than my new Savage model 16, and both rifles have heavy barrels, the barrel on my new Savage messures 0.707 at the muzzle crown. With the Savage .308, and the AR I can shoot 5 shot groups @ 100yrds in the 0.3's on a fairly regular basis. I handload by the book, trim all cases the same length, make sure all my powder charges are the same, and seat my bullets to the C.O.A.L that the manual says. No problems with those two rifles, now to my new Savage .223, I've been trying to find a good load that she likes, I've been going to the range with three sets of different loads 15 rnds per set, 15 rnds 60 gr Vmax, loaded with 24grs of H-335, 15 rnds of 60 gr Vmax loaded with 25grs of H-335, and 15 rnds of 75 gr HPBT match loaded with 25grs RL-15. Whats got me stumped is the first string of 5 shots I take with each load is fine, but the second string of shots fired is nowhere near as tight of a groups as the first string. The first 5 shot string fired with the 75gr HPBT's measured 0.344, while the second 5 shot string measured 1.424 ??!! The first 5 shot string of 60 gr Vmax with 24grs H-335 measured 0.52, while the second 5 shot string measured 0.971, and the first 5 shot string of 60 gr Vmax loaded with 25grs H-335 measured 0.312, and the second string measured 0.636. I've never seen anything as crazy as this, the same rifle, same shooter, same distance, same sand bag rest. The only things I can come up with, and Im probebly wrong (I usually am) is the barrel is flutted, and not as heavey, and is heating up faster, and staying hotter longer. Or Im not used to the accu-trigger, or maybe Im not used to a lighter rifle, or in the end maybe it's just ME!! Anyway if any of you guys have any sugestions for me to try I'd greatly appriciate it as Im at my witts end
Thanks Much
Paul
 
Paul
The first thing that comes to my mind is how often are you cleaning? if I am reading what you are saying correctly it is either a barrel fouling problem or a barrel heating up issue. If directly in front of the receiver ring it is getting much hotter than warm to the touch it is probably heating up too much. Heating up will sometimes make point of impact change but I am not real sure if heat just plain opens groups up, fouling certainly will. Were these 3 different loads tested 3 different days?
Dick
 
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.223 load

Hello ! I have saw many good groups shot with Win. 748 powder
(26.6 gr) 52/55 gr FB Bergers bullets. Look like 223 really liked
748
 
Are you cleaning between the different powders? If not, that's a big problem. Next, that thin barrel isn't taking the heat and that's normal. If I shoot a five shot group out of a barrel like that, it usually take about 30 min for it to cool down enough to trust it again.

Here's my recommendation....only shoot one powder and one bullet per session. Shoot 3-shot groups with that barrel. Let barrel cool between groups. Also, the correct seating depth is more important than the powder charge. If your measuring overall legth using the bullet tip, get a comparator that bases itself on the ogive of the bullet. Also, buy Tony Boyers book, it will save you a lot of money in developing a load.

Hovis
 
I had a .308 Savage that shot 3/4" group, first five shots, and by the third group would shoot 2" for five. Barrel was copper collecting big time, looked like venetian blinds through the borescope. Firelapped it, did better, but I finally put a Kreiger used Palma barrel on it, made Master in HPLR after cutting back the breech end about 1 1/2". Also aluminum bedding block in a thumbhole stock. Cataract in right eye killed my iron sight efforts.
 
Thanks much I greatly appriciate all the info, I was cleaning the barrel every 10 shots, but only with one wet patch followed by a few clean dry patches. Also I THOUGHT I was waiting long enough between each 5 shot group, I was waiting about 5 mins, I can now see thats not nearly enough time. I also never even thought about shooting two different powders in one shooting session, I see Im gonna have to take a different approach with this rifle, Im gonna take all the advice given to me on this thread, Im going back to the range this Thursday with a new mind-set, I'll let you all know what happens.
Again Thanks Much,
Paul
 
Hey Paul,
I'm with Kevin. Try to use the same powder. I got the M-10 and a M-12 .223. It liked the Lapua 77gr.
That was before I saw a Custom gun. And watched this guy shoot, clean, reload, .....Just sat there. He says. Ya got her shooting pretty good. I thought so. He said ya might have more fun with one of these(pointing at the custom). I said looks expensive. He says about the same in bullets and powder.........anyways. Clean the barrel good. 2 wet patches of cleaner(patches on a jag), scrub with very wet bore brush, 2 dry patches, a patch of lightly oiled lock-ease best. If that brush is loose in the bore toss it.
 
Thanks again,
I want you guys to know I really do appriciate your time with my problem, I can't do much until this Thursday at the range, however I just re-cleaned the rifle, and ran two patches of Sweets 7.62 in the barrel, I worked the patches up and down the barrel for about a minute each, and they came out blue, waited 5 mins, then I ran a few clean patches through the bore to dry the Sweets out, and they too came out blue, I then ran two patches of solvent down the bore, then dried her out. I repeated the process, but this time there was no blue on any of the patches, after the last patches soaked in solvent, and clean patches were done, I gave the bore a good coat of oil. What I don't understand is, this is a new rifle with only 125 rounds fired through her, so how could there be any copper fouling in her? Parden my ignorance, but with my other two rifles I don't have a copper problem, every second cleaning I run a patch of Sweets through them, and they hardly ever have any copper fouling in the bores, and when there is I really have to look good at that patch to notice any blue?
When I go to the range this Thursday Im only gonna bring one type of load with the same bullet and powder, shoot 3-4 shot groups, clean between groups, and wait 1/2 hour before shooting the next group.
Paul
 
dont go by the C.O.A.L. in the manuals- instead find a seating depth closer to your jam which on that chamber you may be jumping the bullet a LOOONG ways. that published SAAMI length is to assure all the ammo fits in all magazines and chambers and is not the answer for accuracy.
 
Ive finally got my 223 to shot consistently. It has been a 1 1/2 year struggle. Brand new scope was most of my trouble, then when I put a new Nightforce on it and it didn't shoot I found the copper. Try some J-B paste every so often, as the barrel ages and smoothes out you wont need to use it as often. As was stated win 748 is a very good 223 powder and I use it for my ARs, but the bolt action likes H4895 the best try some I think you will like it. Keep us posted and good luck
 
Paul,

One thing I forgot to say, if you can repeat your first strings with a known clean barrel, I would settle there. That is some good accruacy out of a factory gun. Sometimes you just have to know when to jump up from the bench and do a happy dance. .3xx-.5xx out of any factory rifle makes it a keeper.

Hovis
 
Hovis,
I do like the rifle I just hope I can get more than one good string per range visit, as I said Im gonna shoot slower, and clean her often. I also decided to join the "Pepsi Generation" I just ordered the Hornaday OAL gauge, and their bullet comparator, I really want to also throw my hands up and do a little dance;)
Thanks Again,
Paul
 
did I hear wind flags anywhere on that range?
what stock do you have on this model 16? bedded? freefloated?
my Savage 12LRPV & pencil barrel model 110 @ 100 & 200 yards likes 52 gr Fowler or Sierra Match bullets, N-133 powder, damn near any primer in Lapua brass and a long jump,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD
 
My 223 was used for 10 shot strings, with 80 gn Sierras. Not the same thing, I know but to get it clean, brass/bronze brushes were the only way to go. One stroke for every shot fired. The longer bullets probably copper fouled more than yours but mine carbon fouled too. Not suggesting that you stroke your bore 125 times:( Try 20 strokes, wiping out after 10. It took up to 20 strokes to get the copper out of mine. After another 10 the wipe-out-patches were no longer blue but black, indicating the the BB was working on the carbon. As someone else suggested, try J B Bore compound. You might need it every 200.
As you can imagine, this whole thing was quite a performance and did not take place until the following morning at home in my garage, where the rifle was clamped in a vice on my very solid bench. Again, as you can probably imagine, all this was a very rude awakening for me in the beginning but I hope my experience will make it easier for you.
Good Luck:)
 
Dusty Stevens said:
dont go by the C.O.A.L. in the manuals- instead find a seating depth closer to your jam which on that chamber you may be jumping the bullet a LOOONG ways. that published SAAMI length is to assure all the ammo fits in all magazines and chambers and is not the answer for accuracy.
Click to expand...

Listen to Dusty
 
And 335 is the dirtiest powder available. One shot leaves a haze on the bottom half of the barrel of carbon dust. I discovered this while boresighting a new barrel. While fireforming 100 cases with it i could see accuracy drop off after 20 shots and had to use carbon remover to get it out
 
I already ordered the OAL gage, and comparator set, when I get this "fancy stuff", and find out the C.O.A.L when touching the rifleing, what would be a good place to start backing off the bullet from the rifleing? 5000 thousands, 10,000 thousands off the lands?
Thanks,
Paul
 
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