New load work up

J

jaybic

Guest
I am wondering what some of you use as a load workup procedure? I am trying to refine and improve my technique while being efficient with bullets, powder and primers.

So you get your new rifle from the gunsmith and you are ready to start working up loads. Where do you start?

My brass(Hornady-shoulda bought Lapua!) is all prepped and I am using Forester Benchrest Micrometer dies. I usually load up about 10 rounds of each different powder/primer/bullet combo to try 1 ten shot group with each load.

Am I wasting bullets? should the first few shots tell the story as to whether or not a load has any potential?

Should a guy load for velocity or accuracy first? Does a guy experiment with different primers before or after finding seating depth and powder charge...ect...ect.

I do apologize for peppering y'all with questions but I am trying to learn a good, solid, routine in which to do things. I probably have at least a dozen powders and nearly every type of primer available but I just hope to draw on the experience of those of you who have the years of experience and time invested to know the best way to approach this. Or, maybe there isnt one and a guy just does what ever works for him.

In any case, I again do really appreciate any advice any of you might choose to share.

Thanks for your time,

Jamie
 
First of all........

I am not a benchrest shooter. I have always loaded 5 rounds with a powder of choice in .5 grain increments working from the lowest charge going up, with bullets seated touching the lands, and looking for pressure signs as I go up. I have noticed groups seem to come together at a certain velocity "some what" regardless of powder or charge weight (I understand from reading on this forum that's where everything is in "tune") I have never really played with seating depths, but again after reading, I certainly will be going forward. I have found this thread interesting, http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53309, and I am going to try this metod next. It looks like it would save alot of time and components. Good Luck, I hope this helps.

JKM
 
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One of the best pieces of advice I ever read was from Sinclair Int'l. Load pressure test series at three for each charge. Saves powder, bullets, and barrels.

For hunting, even varmint hunting, most bullets are accurate enough for the job at hand. Slight differences in accuracy, 0.1" or more depending on the target, isn't going to mean a missed varmint or game animal. First I pick a bullet or two that will do what I want done. I load the powders I think might work best - referring to manuals if I have no experience with the cartridge - in increments of 0.5 gr for cases down to .222 or .223 with one of the bullets with three rounds per charge weight. These are fired to determine pressure signs looking for a working maximum load, and chronographed to give some idea of velocities. These three shot groups might give you an idea of which powders will work best, or maybe none work as well as you think they should. For live varmint shooting I seat the bullets at the rifling so that there's only one way to go with seating depth, and seating the bullets deeper won't give higher pressures in normal rifle cases. For rounds that have to feed through a magazine I load to the longest OAL I can to fit in the magazine and feed.

One important thing to note is that loading various bullets to the same OAL will leave them at different distances from the rifling. For live varmint rifles this can make a real difference in accuracy. Use a comparator from Sinclair or Hornady (formerly Stoney Point) to measure the length from the head of the case to a point on the ogive that contacts the rifling. This will vary depending on the ogive too, so various makes, weights and types of bullets will need to be measured if you plan on trying a bunch of different bullets.

It's not as complicated or as big a pain in the tail as it sounds.... :D
 
When I get a new barrel to break in and work up loads, I generally start by selecting several bullets that I would like to shoot in it and a powder that looks like a good candidate and check several reloading manuals for the max charge. I load each bullet with one round at max, the next at .5 gr less for large cartridges or .3 gr less for smaller ones and then continue on down till I have 5 progressive loads with each bullet.
I go to the range and do my 1 shot and clean shooting one of the bullets progressing from the lightest to heaviest charge and always shooting over the chronograph to get a good check on velocity and pressure. I continue with these ladder loads, possibly going to 2 shots and clean if the borescope shows it's time until I have all the loads fired, each bullet at one target. Usually, a particular bullet will show better accuracy potential than the others.
I go home and load the bullet with the most potential with several powders that should have the right burning rate rate for 90-100% load density and load ladder loads with one bullet and several powders. I go to the range and shoot these as I continue the break in lowest to highest again recording velocities and checking pressures. One powder will generally display better grouping potential than the others.
I go home and load several TWO SHOT LOADS at the powder levels that appeared to be less sensitive to charge variation and return to the range to fire these two shot groups. Harvey Miller, a crusty old gunsmith from San Leandro, Ca once told me; "If it won't group two, it won't group five." You may get fooled by a random good two shot group that won't repeat, but you'll never get fooled by a two inch group that magically gets better when you shoot five.
I next load three or five shot groups with the best of the two shot groups and see what I have. Quite often by the time the break in is done, I have a good load for the gun.
 
Tell me if its a factory rifle or custom? what bullet or bullets you want to shoot? what caliber with what twist? With this info I'll tell you my system, which works.
 
Its a Rem 700vs rebarreled with a Krieger 26inc 1/10 twist 5 contour barrel. The action is in the process of being printed and trued. It has Leupold VX II 6x18 glass and mounts and the trigger has been worked down to about 2-2 1/2 lbs. HS Precision alum bedding block stock.

It used to be a factory 22-250 and shot great(1/2 inch +/- most days if I did my part). It had about 4000 rounds thru it when it took it in to be rebarreled after it started to shoot poorly(1-1.5in).

Its purpose is a long range coyote whacker and maybe a beginning level F-class or hunter class shooting if I feel I can compete at all.

I originally planned to shoot 110gr Vmax bullets at the coyotes but I have since learned that the bigger bullets(168/175 smks-higher BC?) should be more accurate and carry energy much farther so I would like to feed it those bullets and I have 8lbs of Varget as well as other powders.

I hope this helps and thank you to all of you for your ideas. I spend a fair amount of time searching various coyote hunting forums and there are some very knowledgeable fellas there, but I feel like on the subject of extreme accuracy(as much as I or that rifle may have), that where those forums end is where BRC begins. The next level, if you will.

Thanks again,

Jamie

PS. The barrel was ordered on about 15April08 and is still not here yet. Krieger called my smith and said something about it being ready to ship and that was about 3 wks ago but no barrel yet. Is that about the normal time frame? Not panicking or anything, just new to this rebarrelling thing. I thought the whole process would take like 1 month from order to picking up my rifle. Oh well, hides are not prime yet anyway but the "new rifle bug" is killing me!
 
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Jaybic: I am guessing your 22-250 is going to be turned into a 308 Winchester?
I would step up and try the LaPua 308 Winchester brass as soon as practical for your "new" rig.
I normally go about load development first using the bullet "I" want to shoot in that Rifle, obtain Federal Match primers of the proper size, use my Sinclair Bullet Seating Depth Tool to adjust my Redding Reloading Dies with for minimal bullet jump, I always have in mind a couple of powders anymore that have a reputation for accuracy in that caliber and then I make up 20 rounds of load test ammo to await my first range testing day.
Each powder charge is individually weighed - of course.
And normally my 20 round regimen includes 10 rounds of two loads to be tested that day. I leave my Oehler chronograph at home UNTIL I have an accuracy loading that I want to use. Extreme Spreads and velocities can be fine tuned (or ignored!) later if I feel its warranted.
And that first load testing day (as well as all subsequent ones!) will ONLY occurr on a dead calm day!
I simply do not do load development or sight in verifications on days that are anything but dead calm anymore.
Its a waste of time, money and my patience shooting in moving air conditions - plenty of time for that later - after loads are settled on and sight in perfected.
I have some load suggestions for you if indeed your new factory/hybrid Rifle is in 308 Winchester caliber by the way.
Best of luck with the new Rifle project!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
VarmintGuy,

Yes , it is going to come home a .308.

It sounds like I have been doing things very similar to your method. Deadcalm only, 2-5 diff loads, 10 rounds each and shoot for accuracy before speed. If I can use the chrony at the same time I will but the accuracy part is first and foremost. I use a stoney point comparitor(sp?) and measure to the rifling and then back off .10 and that is my usual starting point, at least in my .223s, 22-250s and .243.

This is my typical load work up method. Just for instance, in my Abolt 22-250 I would load take 50 Winchester once fired and completely prepared brass, loaded all the same loading session for consitancy, with CCI BR Lg rifle primers, 50gr Hornady Vmax and same oal and load 10rds with Varget, 10 w/h4895, 10 w/H380, 10 w/h414 and 10 w/whatever.... All test loads are weighed on my RCBS 505 scale and then checked against my RCBS digital.

With my .308 I am just trying to learn a better way using less bullets and barrel life if that better way is even out there. I hope to learn how some of the most accurate shooters around reload and then do it that way. That way I can only blame myself lousy shooting.

I am trying to improve on the astounding luck I have shooting one shot one hole groups. Its always the shots after that that go astray!:D

Thanks,

jamie

Ps, If you have .308 loads to share, I would very much like to hear them.
 
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With a custom barrel and chamber you will be able to reach the lands.Not always so with factory chamberings. Now find out your chamber neck diameter, then create a loaded round thats .002 or .003 under the chamber neck diameter.(.003 is safer).This might require neck turning and if it does the better the accuracy. Use a neck bushing die that is .003 under the assumed loaded round diameter so that the neck tension will allow a bullet to easily slide in the case when the bullet bearing surface is seated farther out than the lands so that the bolt when closed becomes the final seating die. After finding the distance to the lands for the intended bullet or bullets, seat them .020 out and let the bolt move them to their final position before firing. This should provide good accuracy. Use one powder and test at a middle charge then increase up to maximum charge to find best accuracy and velosity combo. Try at least 2 powders recommended for 308 and the bullet weight you're using.For competition use target bullets, for coyotes use hunting bullets. For competion shooting the Leopold 8.5x25 long range is a good choice for the money, and will also be great for varmints. the 2# plus trigger pull is fine for hunting but not for competition. Jewell triggers work great in Remington actions.
 
Food For Thought.

Because of the way a rifle barrel is anchored in a stock, most off the muzzle movement is in the verticle plane. When a barrel vibrates it travels in one direction untill the barrel steel reaches its elastic limit, then slows down stops and travels in the opposite direction. If the bullet exits the muzzle in the dead water zone at the top or bottom of the amplitude we get brilliant accuracy. Superior groups always land higher or lower on our target than inferior ones for this reason. The graph a of progressive load development is cone shaped with the point of the cone on the node which means that only one node is accesible with any given load. If we seat close to the lands we are only getting half of the picture because there is a 50/50 chance that we are heading for the blunt end of the cone. For the above mentionend reasons I establish a direction with seating depth changes. If groups are schrinking keep going, if they are getting bigger proceed in the opposite direction. Good luck with your new rifle. Try 165g Sierra hollow points and Varget up to 45g max. Murphy.
 
Marion,

Thank alot,

I think I finally understand what "Jam" means now. I hear you guys mention that alot but your explanation made it clear. You guys are actually loading bullets directly in contact with the rifling? I always understood that this was a dangerous practice, yet I always read things like "yeah, load the bullet to jam and then work your way back to find seating depth" but I thought I was just reading it wrong or not understanding.

So you just take a case and size it in such a way that the bullet has a relatively minimum neck tension and when you close the bolt it actually pushes the bullet to to a length that is then know as "jam". You load them with a moderate load and shoot and then move them deeper by maybe .05thou until your targets show you what the gun likes for a seating depth?

I dont have neck dies, all I have is the Forester Micrometer dies but I think I understand the concept and what is actually trying to be accomplished.

I think the dumb kid just lernt sumpin!

Thanks again everyone,

Jamie
 
Get a pile of 168 smks and put 44 gr varget behind it, with good brass, and tune by depth and powder increments as mentioned by Lynn and others.
 
10 twist ?

Who's smithing the rifle (Clint @ Coyote Creek maybe ?) a 10 twist is more than you need for those bullets 155-168 gr. class ,a 10 twist will put you in the 195-220 range.That being said give the new 185 gr.BT Berger's a try with Varget,IMR 4895,N150, N560 CCI BRs or Fed 210s.........BTW are you planning to go after (THE WOLVES of I-90;)) Just had to laugh when I saw that on the news
 
Roger T,

Yep, you guessed it. He is doing the work and he has always proven to be very good to me(for what little I know) so I have faith that it will turn out to be an excellent rifle for my purposes. You must know Clint and be from the Rochester area. Have we met at the range or anything before? I shoot at the range in Chatfield because it goes out to 300 yards and the Chester range is only 200 yards and much busier, although it is nicer.

Hopefull, If I get my way, I will get 175gr SMKs to shoot well over Varget and they will be my bullet of choice for long-range coyote hunting. I called the Sierra tech line and Rich told me to get a meplat trimmer and open the hollow point bullet tip up so I am not so likely to get a pass-thru using that bullet. I dont know if that works but I am sure he knows better than I.

I am a coyote hunting junky and spend about 20-30 days a year in North Dakota hunting them as well as every weekend from early December to the beginning of March hunting them around here. What is the "wolves of I90" that you are talking about? I have no idea but if its coyote, I do hunt a few spots near I 90 as I live right close to it and if thats the case, I will whack every one I get a chance at. I would rather call coyotes than hunt anything, deer, turkeys...ect. The rush of a called coyote coming in knows no equal to me. Some animals have the eyes, some the nose, and some the ears. Coyotes have all 3. Getting riled thinking about it! Seasons nearly here.:D

Thats what the new rifle is for. If they come in to the call and hang up at 500-600 yards, I got something for them, assuming I get enough practice and have the confidence to take that shot. I get that shot much more often out in ND but occasionlly, I will see one around here and pass him by because the .223 is out of gas and the .22-250 is nearly out of gas at those ranges.

Anyway, Thanks for the tips. Maybe I'll catch you at one of the local ranges one day.

Jamie
 
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Say hello to Clint next time you see him. His boys were in my Firearm Saftey class that I teach (with others) he lives just west of me 5 miles. He'll do a good job for ya:D. Try the 185 Berger BTs they are SUPER:D:D:D:D.They have a higher BC than the 180 VLDs and in my tests are more tolerant of seating depth.Good luck on the prodject:cool:
 
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jaybic said:
I am trying to refine and improve my technique while being efficient with bullets, powder and primers.
I usually load up about 10 rounds of each different powder/primer/bullet combo to try 1 ten shot group with each load.
Am I wasting bullets? should the first few shots tell the story as to whether or not a load has any potential?

Jamie
Click to expand...

Mr. Jamie, please tell us, why do you feel the need to load and fire 10 shot group when only two or three rounds are needed to tell the story.

Mr. Jamie, the .308W usually works well with many combinations, but tell us why wouldn't you try 155 Scenar and RE-15 powder?

Mr. Jamie, should your load be used for hunting, what reason would you have not to try 178 A-Max and Varget powder?

Con
 
Jaybic: He might be making reference to a Wolf that was run over and killed by a vehicle on I-90 near the Idaho/Montana border.
This story was initially "spun" as "isn't it a shame we have roads and cars and the poor little endangered Wolf got runt over"!
For folks familiar with Wolves and their now exploding population (that just passed 2,000 animals in the states of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana alone) it just follows that once there are so many animals, one will eventually get runt over by a vehicle!
And this, regarding the senses of the Coyote - I agree they do have superb sight, hearing and sense of smell - there is NO animal in Natures Kingdom that can assess danger and deal with it better than a Coyote!
And what I am referring to here is when I call in a Coyote and for what ever reason the Coyote senses me or I shoot at it and miss it - the Coyote can assess my position and use terrain, ground cover, trees or bushes to conceal himself as he retreats better than any animal I know of!
Coyotes ARE flat out smart and once they are "on to you" you will have a difficult time bringing them to bag!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
In Benchrest, jam is the longest oal (at a given neck tension) that a cartridge can be loaded to without the bullet being pushed back as the bolt is closed. How far that is beyond the point that the bullet just touches the rifling depends on the ogive shape, neck tension, and throat geometry. "Off of jam" is how much shorter than that length a round is loaded. "Into the rifling" means the amount past just touching, as in "I am .010 into the rifling" which means .010 longer than the length needed to just touch. Yes, there is an increase in pressure associated with touching or being into the rifling, which is why one should start with a conservative powder charge, and work up, when first trying this range of seating depths. Often, if the powder charge is about right, there is much more to be gained by working with seating depth than can be gained by ignoring seating depth and fussing with a tenth of a grain of powder one way or the other. If you are testing without some sort of wind flags (Even surveyor's on some sticks will do.) your are, to a certain degree, spitting into the wind. If I had a nickel for every shooter that told me that fhe was serious about accuracy, but did't want to be bothered with that, I would have several dollars. Money, and "trying harder" won't overcome a lack of important information.
 
VarmintGuy said:
Jaybic: He might be making reference to a Wolf that was run over and killed by a vehicle on I-90 near the Idaho/Montana border.
This story was initially "spun" as "isn't it a shame we have roads and cars and the poor little endangered Wolf got runt over"!
For folks familiar with Wolves and their now exploding population (that just passed 2,000 animals in the states of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana alone) it just follows that once there are so many animals, one will eventually get runt over by a vehicle!
And this, regarding the senses of the Coyote - I agree they do have superb sight, hearing and sense of smell - there is NO animal in Natures Kingdom that can assess danger and deal with it better than a Coyote!
And what I am referring to here is when I call in a Coyote and for what ever reason the Coyote senses me or I shoot at it and miss it - the Coyote can assess my position and use terrain, ground cover, trees or bushes to conceal himself as he retreats better than any animal I know of!
Coyotes ARE flat out smart and once they are "on to you" you will have a difficult time bringing them to bag!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Click to expand...

No these "Wolves" 2 of them, were spotted near the cty Rd 8 overpass on I 90 just west of Stewertville Mn and were last seen around Elkton Mn. eating the deer carcasses in the median of the freeway. The Mn. DNR has yet to confirm this but several (qualified ) people have seen them according to the news reports. The Mower county sherrif Teresa Amazi said no livestock has been botherd by them yet, but they might be large Wild Dogs:eek: and could be shot on sight..........I say leav'em be their doing the Hwy Dept a favor by cleaning up the carcasses:D
 
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Jaybic, Your're getting a lot of good advice but don't let it get you confused .
With my custom rifles the method I recommended has worked quite well for me and many other 600yd and 1000yd shooters.First of all the jam is different depending on neck tension.With a lot of tension the bullet will not move very much and if it's seated .020 out you may not be able to close the bolt.Be cognizant of the fact that with a neck bushion that's .003 under the desired loaded round outside diameter you will get springback of + or minus
.001 so that neck tension is approx. .002. You will hardly feel the bullet move when closing bolt. Always seat the same to control enercia(sp) differences. The bullet and case will be in good alignment with the bore contributing to accuracy. You should find acceptable accuracy by varying the charge not the seating depth. .015 out .020 out or .025 out will not make any difference so long as they seated the same, measured by cartridge overall length minus the ogive.
 
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