New announcement from Vortex about the PST.

G

gt40

Guest
Vortex Viper PST Riflescope Update. We are excited to announce that we are preparing to ship some of the long-awaited Viper PST riflescopes beginning the last week of December.


Well I just got back from my Wyoming hunt. We had a great time for a couple of old coggers. We found out that hunting just on public walk-in land north of Gillette is for the young guys. With only one excuse being our age. Me 65 and my buddy 62 it really was hard on us. I could only walk about two hundred yards through sage brush without falling down and almost braking my wrist and wrenching my back the first morning.

We were watching 15 goats including 4 bucks for 5 days within 300 yards of a high point over looking them. The morning the season opened was when I tripped and fell. I'm glad no one was there to laugh at me. After I found my glasses I picked up my rifle with the new Vortex Viper 6-24x50mm PST FFP MOA with Illuminated Reticle and the custom turret scope on it up out of the dirt which took most of the hard hit on the objective end of the scope. There was a little dirt in the very end of the barrel too. After I got calmed down I worked my way to the point and unpacked to settle in prone to glass for the goats.

Well they had moved at least one mile to private land and stayed there for 5 days until we left to come home.

Since there wasn't anything for me to shoot I decided to take a shot at a coyote at 155 yds. to see if the PST held up to the punishment it was given. I left the turret at 2 which is my 200 yd. zero and since he was looking up at me I put the cross hair on his lower neck and sent the 105 gr. Berger on its way. It hit the bottom of his neck and came out his back. He just dropped and never moved.

About 45 minutes later I spotted another one at 400 yds. I turned the turret to 4 for 400 yds. and turned the power down to 6x and was amazed that even though it is very thin you could see it perfectly and could hold it on what ever part of the body you wanted to hold on. If it was a SFP scope the normal hunting reticule would have covered the whole coyote. This is for me one of the nicer features of this scope.

Well I held on its chest and sent another Berger on its way and bingo it flopped over and only kicked twice that I could see.

On Sunday we met a guy that builds long range rifles for people and has a target range that goes to 2,000 yards. I wanted to check the custom turret that Vortex made me. Since the turret is MOA in yards it ends at 900 yds, but when I turned it around past 900 to 7 it was dead on at 1,000 and when I turned to 8 plus 1 line it was dead on at 1,100 yds. I also moved from target to target up and down the different distances and the scope tracked perfectly. Example I went from 200 yds then 300 then 400 then 500,600,700,800,900,1000,1100 then back to 1000,900,800,700 and so on down to 200 yds. Then we settled on shooting at 700 yds. We did not hit the gongs every time, but it wasn't the rifle or scopes fault, but reading the wind.

I am still amazed at how easy this scope works and all the options that come with it.


"Aim small miss small", ;)

gt40
 
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Please keep ads for hunnerd doller chinese rifle scopes in the classifieds if you would??? Or over on longerangehuntingforum.com



al
 
Please keep ads for hunnerd doller chinese rifle scopes in the classifieds if you would??? Or over on longerangehuntingforum.com



al



Is this better for ya. Oh these scopes are not made in China. Japanese lenses and parts, but assembled in the Philippines I believe. They also have a for ever no receipt warranty.

There are many people that have been waiting for these scopes and I wanted to put the word that they will be available over the next 3 to 4 weeks.

I don't sell these and not affiliated with Vortex or any other seller. Mine sells for $900 + the Custom Turret which is half the price of a FFP Tactical Leupold without Illuminated Reticle.

I post pictures on gon.com because it is much easier to do it there than here. This shows testing the new turret: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=564977&highlight=

gt40
 
Or over on longerangehuntingforum.com


You should remember that you are the person who posted the following which amply demonstrates you lack of understanding of not only physics but also of hunting at long range.

You might want to review the situation with the apple and conduct your own experiment if you think gravity works upwards the same as it does downward. try releasing an apple one hundred times and see how many times it falls upward. I believe you will find that Newton was correct and gravity only works in one direction.


As far as I know you have to figure it using basic trig.

Uphill or downhill the holdunder is exactly the same, you hold for the horizontal distance.

The easiest way to illustrate it is to use "Ye Olde Bowhunters Trick"....... when shooting downhill in trees, like on a hillside or more usefully p'raps when shooting from a treestand, you pick the tall tree closest to your quarry and estimate or laser the LEVEL distance to the tree trunk. Shoot for the level distance.

This is not an approximation, actual mathematical hold is the LEVEL distance above or below your target.


In your haste to get a high post count you do not seem to strive for quality.
 
OK, I'm curious...

You should remember that you are the person who posted the following which amply demonstrates you lack of understanding of not only physics but also of hunting at long range.

You might want to review the situation with the apple and conduct your own experiment if you think gravity works upwards the same as it does downward. try releasing an apple one hundred times and see how many times it falls upward. I believe you will find that Newton was correct and gravity only works in one direction.

Could you elaborate on how that applies to trajectory, line of sight, and horizontal distance? What is the effect of shooting 30 degrees up compared to 30 degrees down? Thanks. - nhk
 
You should remember that you are the person who posted the following which amply demonstrates you lack of understanding of not only physics but also of hunting at long range.

You might want to review the situation with the apple and conduct your own experiment if you think gravity works upwards the same as it does downward. try releasing an apple one hundred times and see how many times it falls upward. I believe you will find that Newton was correct and gravity only works in one direction.





In your haste to get a high post count you do not seem to strive for quality.

Ohhh buffaloperson...... that's been waiting in there for a long time hasn't it :)

I don't answer to attitude but if you REALLY want to know the answer please read a book. I'd give you a list but unfortunately you'd just assume that "Mr High Post Count" was in cahoots with the authors.

So I give you this challenge, READ A BOOK and come back and show Ol Anilwa to be wrong.

It'll give you something to write home about.....

Ohh I know, you'd rawther go SHOOT to test. So do that. I have....... thousands of rounds..... problem with this method is that you'll actually SEE the result.

And you have to have the tools and ability to run the test.

Shucks, go over to Sniper Tools and LOOK at their ACI and ADI units... read and understand how to use them....these are the ones I use. I've got four of them down in the shop as we speak.... look at the numbers on the dial and UNDERSTAND them and you'll be less likely to look silly when talking to real shooters.

Ohhh, here's the linky since you seem to like using the keyboard....

http://www.snipertools.com/


al
 
Any of your books discuss adiabatic lapse rate?

Any of your books discuss vector analysis as a mathematical means of solving problems in Newtonian mechanics such as in "Classical Dynamics of Particles And Systems" by J. Marion.

Any first year engineering or physics student can solve the equations and prove shooting uphill and downhill is different.

You might want to take your own advice and read a book and you will find gravity only works one way.


grav.jpg
 
One of the benefits of having a degree in physics and another in engineering is recognizing stupidity when it is posted up.
 
Tell ya what Bob, I don't have either of those degrees, but I do have a more specific source, that is generally recognized as having some experience in the field of exterior ballistics. This is from a new, small bullet maker that has been stumbling around in the field for a little while. You might want to read what I have copied from one page of their web site ExteriorBallistics.com I really would like a comment on their material. Perhaps they have been wrong all these years, and you should contact them with the appropriate corrections.

Added later: The copy and paste did not work well, so I leave you with a link to the page, and recommend to you the first sentence on it. http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/33.cfm
 
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"The adiabatic lapse rates – which refer to the change in temperature of a mass of air as it moves upwards. " ...and that would affect me how?

I think we all agree that the bullet will strike higher on the target fired at either an up or down angle... How much difference there is between an equal angle up or down is debatable(?). I looked at the page on exterior ballistics and yes there is a difference, but that distance is negligible under practical applications. The example had a total difference of less than a 1/4" at 500 yards with the 7mm Mag at 45 degrees and 3/4" at 200 yards with a .44 Mag at 45 degrees and neither are realistically going to achieve that kind of accuracy or is the shooter going to read the angle that precisely in the field. So, practically, there is no different. You can compute a difference, but in practice you can't apply it. Can everyone agree on that? - nhk
 
Yes, I am aware of that link and recommended it to a new shooter last week. It is about 10 years old now and the science has advanced beyond there. It is a good start for beginners. It agrees with what I said except that they rationalize disregarding gravity and the lapse rate. . Exbal did the same thing with spin drift and coriolis for a long time before another guy from longrangehunting.com did some experimental work for Nightforce. All you have to do is go and look at Exbal and the number of upgrades they have made to their ballistics programs over the last few years. You can also go and look at JBM and where they are in upgrading their program. Very small issues such as spin drift and coriolis are now being addressed. You can run JBM uphill and down hill and see if it is the same. The last I knew they computed adiabatic lapse rate but not gravity but with the newest upgrade they may now also calculate gravity.

The way you can tell that the reference you recommend is behind the times is check and see whether they use G1s or G7. This tells you the amount of error they are willing to accept in their computations. My general understanding is that one of the authors of that section you recommend has upgraded his ballistics equations recently. You might track him down and see what he is now saying.

One of the driving force in ballistics programs has been the military and another has been the number of hunters demanding extreme accuracy at extreme ranges and the competition between the authors of those programs coupled with advances in hand held device memory and computational speed has moved us a long ways down the road recently

Ward Brien has been a guest author on LongRangeHunting.com several times and we all like him and his products. Does not mean that I use him as a reference author on Newtonian mechanics though.


So I'll tell you what Boyd, if you have so little to do on Christmas eve but to defend a BS artist like Al who insults a guy about a scope when he doesn't even know where the scope is made and then insults two other forum then here is something to entertain you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Microcystis?feature=mhum
 
Impressive shot (in the video).

Actually, I was trying to ignore the whole scope thing, since it seemed to me that gt40 handled it so well.

On the uphill, downhill thing, I remember reading an article that was, I believe, published in Precision Shooting this year. It was supposed to be part one, and, among other things it made the point that there is significant disagreement among recognized authorities on the subject, and that because of that, part two would contain results from actual field testing. I will be interested in the results.

Back on the scope thing, hopefully in a constructive vein, after reading gt40's reply to Al's comment, I went to the Vortex website and looked around. Man! they have some fancy (and expensive) scopes, not at all what you would expect from a typical el cheapo private label importer. They have some inexpensive ones, but it was the higher end lines that interested me, so much so that I sent them an email suggesting that they get with my friend that runs AccurateShooter.com and arrange for a critical test, so that I can get a reliable third party evaluation of the higher end of their line.

Back to external ballistics....I would love to see some carefully done testing of the uphill downhill thing. Do you know of any that has been published?
 
Boyd

Shawn Carlock of Defensive edge and I had a disagreement for about a year on this subject on a couple of hunting forums. It was not marked with any animosity like this one being as I am one of his customers and a big fan of his. He went and tested to try to prove I was wrong. He wound up making a full post of his findings. He then was asked by Nightforce to make some tests for Gerald Perry to improve the Exbal/Nightforce program for spindrift.
 
I'd simply like to ask, what does any of this have to do with F-Class competition?
 
what does any of this have to do with F-Class competition?
I don't have a clue as to what it has to do with F-class.

In four years of competing I have only won once. Even my daughter whom I taught how to shoot would regularly beat me.
 
I'd simply like to ask, what does any of this have to do with F-Class competition?

You're right, nothing. I apologize for getting side-tracked. I was interested on comments about the Vortex scopes and when the discussion took a 90 degree turn on the effect of angle on range correction I was interested in finding out more about that as well. - nhk
 
Impressive shot (in the video).

Actually, I was trying to ignore the whole scope thing, since it seemed to me that gt40 handled it so well.

On the uphill, downhill thing, I remember reading an article that was, I believe, published in Precision Shooting this year. It was supposed to be part one, and, among other things it made the point that there is significant disagreement among recognized authorities on the subject, and that because of that, part two would contain results from actual field testing. I will be interested in the results.

Back on the scope thing, hopefully in a constructive vein, after reading gt40's reply to Al's comment, I went to the Vortex website and looked around. Man! they have some fancy (and expensive) scopes, not at all what you would expect from a typical el cheapo private label importer. They have some inexpensive ones, but it was the higher end lines that interested me, so much so that I sent them an email suggesting that they get with my friend that runs AccurateShooter.com and arrange for a critical test, so that I can get a reliable third party evaluation of the higher end of their line.

Back to external ballistics....I would love to see some carefully done testing of the uphill downhill thing. Do you know of any that has been published?


If you would like to look here there is some discussion about the Vortex Viper PST FFP scopes on the Accurate Shooter Forum:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3756553.0.html

gt40

PS: There is a lot of discussions on many other long range & tactical forums & test reviews of the Vortex PST and their Razor HD scopes:

The first test review was one that Caused Vortex to send back all of their new PST scopes to be redesigned and fix the turrets instead of selling them and fixing the next generation. What other companies do this? They are going to exchange all the PST scopes that were sold like mine with the new fixed scopes.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=172508&Number=1906680#Post1906680

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/sfp-ffp-hunting-64073/index3.html

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=19&page=1

https://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=5
 
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Well I missed all of the deleted stuff but have to comment on the comment "what does this have to do with F-Class?"

Ummm, maybe nothing except that posting bad info anywhere doesn't change the fact that it's BAD INFO!!

IMO understanding ballistics is crucial to hitting things over mixed distances and situations.

Also IMO a year-long argument between two (or ten) people ignorant of basic physics means absolutely nothing.

There are no secrets in ballistics, nothing mysterious, nothing "misunderstood" and certainly no "advances" in the last ten yrs.

But hey, you can't argue with ignorance.

al
 
alinwa,

Just "maybe" someone here might be interested in using one of these scopes in F-Class.

gt40
 
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