Neck turning. Hand or motor powered?

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Woodchuck2

Guest
I neck turned my first batch of 6br (for my dasher). I used a drill on low speed and a Hart neck turning tool. I've noticed that the accuracy isn't there and can feel the difference when closing the bolt and when seating with the Wilson die in the neck tension. I'm touching up all of the necks by hand with my new Sinclair turner, and hopefully I'll get more consistency. What method does everyone else use?
 
Woodchuck2 said:
I neck turned my first batch of 6br (for my dasher). I used a drill on low speed and a Hart neck turning tool. I've noticed that the accuracy isn't there and can feel the difference when closing the bolt and when seating with the Wilson die in the neck tension. I'm touching up all of the necks by hand with my new Sinclair turner, and hopefully I'll get more consistency. What method does everyone else use?
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I'm Powered Only Using:

One of these [I actually have 4]: http://www.toolselect.com/product/detail/Ryobi-HP41LK @180 RPMs

One of these: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/case-neck-expanding-tools/expand-iron_complete.html with 2 mandrels, one in 6mm and one in .30 caliber.

One of these: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/n...k-turner_body-only_carbide-cutting-pilot.html and

One of these: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-turner-tools/power-adapter-with-shell-holder.html

With excellent results! Consistency within .0003" [3/10,000 thds.] or less.
 
Could be any number of things.

Can we assume these were virgin cases, so there was no donut to throw the mandrel off-center as the case was advanced?

If so, is the "irregularity" within single cases, or just between different cases? If within a case, I'd suspect the clearance between the mandrel & case was too great. You can cock things, esp with a drill. If between cases, I'd bet heat's getting you -- with power tooling, heat can build up pretty quickly. One reason I like carbide mandrels; heat just isn't much of an issue.

Having said that, I'm surprised you can see it on paper. Phil Bower, notorious in the long-range community for fussing over things that matter, fired his Word Record HG group with cases having split necks. Or really, some were split, some were not...Far as Phil's concerned, neck tension doesn't matter.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...00-yd-nationals-bower-breaks-hg-group-record/

As for getting the bullet centered to within less than .0002 or so, Lou Murdica found that he could shoot the difference between rounds with some bullet runout in a tunnel. Presumably, it took the tunnel to see the difference, we're talking groups in the zeros here. And Lou is an awfully good benchrest shooter...

A more likely possibility is you've found a very fussy seating dept. And that's the kind of thing that will jump up & ruin your day, even if you do get the necks to within .0001 or better.

Edit:

Just saw the other post -- thought I'd mention that I do turn by hand, and get things to plus or minus half a tenthousanth. (Relative, not absolute. Within half a mark on the mike.) I too use K&M, with carbide mandrels. But I've had them for years, that's not particularly a recommendation. There's been a lot of newer stuff that's probably just as good.

Doesn't seem to help my shooting much, though.
 
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I have been turning by a cordless drill and a K&M set up for years in several different cartridges...Are you checking them with a ball mic when they come off the turner?
I check every case after i turn it about eight spots around the neck and the best i can hold is .0003 I think that is about as good as it gets. do not try to hold the turner still let it wobble in your hand. make sure you are down to takeing nothing off, like running the case back and forth may look like it's taking some dust off. I bought a new turner and it is very nice but i found the best i could hold with it is .0005 and i was not happy with that, by looks of it you would think you could do better with it but cant.
I dont know if the fit between the expander and mandrel or just something off with the tool. I just went back to my good old K&M and i'm happy may even sell that new turner cheap along with a bunch of stuff i have bought over the years hopeing it would be better.lol...
 
It was virgin brass. I can't remember if I used the expander mandrel first but it seems I did. Then I used the 6.5 expander mandrel to create the false shoulder for fire forming. I bet it was heat build up. I'll try it by hand on my next virgin brass. I haven't bought a ball mic yet so I check a case with a seated bullet and then subtract the bullet diameter.
 
Woodchuck2 said:
I haven't bought a ball mic yet so I check a case with a seated bullet and then subtract the bullet diameter.
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Not the worst way, and until you use them a bit -- as one wag put it "you can get just about any number you want with a ball mike." Still, a tool worth having & learning to use.

One thing about the K&M, at least when Ken Markel did the tooling, was that the cutter had a negative rake. That makes cutting slower, but easier to be very precise. A positive rake will cut faster, with the usual compromise in use. I have no idea what Sinclair uses.

I've had one dealing with the guy who bought Ken's business, and must say it was *very* favorable. I'd not hesitate to get more K&M tooling.
 
mark-x said:
I don't know if the fit between the expander and mandrel or just something off with the tool.
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Woodchuck2,

Mark-x brings up a good point. If you're using an Expander before using the Turner, make sure the expander mandrel and the turner mandrel are made by the SAME company. They must be compatible or you can end up, for example, with an expanded neck that's too over sized for the turner mandrel. Then you run into all kinds of problems. Use your company of choice for both mandrels.
 
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abintx said:
Woodchuck2,

Mark-x brings up a good point. If you're using an Expander before using the Turner, make sure the expander mandrel and the turner mandrel are made by the SAME company. They must be compatible or you can end up, for example, with an expanded neck that's too over sized for the turner mandrel. Then you run into all kinds of problems. Use your company of choice for both mandrels.
Click to expand...

This is particularly true if you cut with power. Another reason I hand turn. My other neck turner is an old TJ Jackson turner (reportedly a Pindell design), and there were no expander mandrels. There are lots of things I like about this turner, and a few I don't. As it comes, it cuts a tapered neck, which also has pluses & minuses.

As I said, I'm very surprised you can see these differences on the target. It usually takes me a season's shooting to decide on subtle things -- and then, it's more mental than not, I suspect.
 
Measurements seem to get more uniform for me if I give each case a quick spin with a mild abrasive pad after cutting to knock off the dags.
 
John Kielly said:
Measurements seem to get more uniform for me if I give each case a quick spin with a mild abrasive pad after cutting to knock off the dags.
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Woodchuck2,

That's a good habit to get into. With the case still attached to my power screwdriver, I stuff the neck into a pad of 0000 steel wool and rotate it quite a few times. Then stuff the neck into a paper towel, while it's rotated, to clean everything off the outside, then use a Q-tip, while it's rotating, to clean the inside of the case neck. The powered screwdriver makes the work fast and simple and it's easy on semi-arthritic hands.
 
Measure the loaded rounds for neck clearance - all of them. If each has enough clearance then you're good to go. Some of the problems you notice will vanish after a few firings but you'll need to get the necks closer to each other when you make the next batch if that gives you the slightest pause.

Look elsewhere for the "accuracy isn't there" problem.

Hand or powered offers the same consistency depending on technique. Both methods have individual shortcomings but power is the way to go if it can be arranged.
 
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Maybe it's not the necks I'm seeing on the target. It is just obvious that the tension is different so I figured it was causing a difference in velocity. I really need to be at the range practicing more often, I just thought neck tension was more of an issue.
 
Here are some vague generalities. They may help with the three shot groups a lot of us use to rule things out -- that is, if the target looks bad & the generality fits, that target is probably right & its time to move on.

Powders

If you're using a Dasher, you might be using Rel 15. I've never found any of the Reloader series to be fussy about neck tension. The odd one out here is Rel-17, which is made by a Swiss company rather than Bofors. But that's not a Dasher powder...

You might be using VarGet. I found (not a Dasher), & others say the same, that VarGet likes pressure. Any thing less than full power loads are apt not to please. I've no real thoughts about neck tensions with this powder, but in my older .30x44, which likes it, I don't use high neck tension.

There are other powders used with Dashers, the new IMR 8208XBR, and the old H-4895, with which a number of Montana guys seem to have found Dasher joy. Never found 4895 to be fussy...

long-range Bullets (in the 95-108 grain region)

Berger (Walt) did a flip-flop twice on the VLDs. First recommendation was to jump them. Next recommendation was to not jump, either just touch, or jam. Then -- the company, anyway -- went back to suggesting trying a jump, .040 or even more.

I'd say that history is about right -- in other words, try them all. In the small sample size I have, a .020 jump seems to work better more often that not. But you'd best try them all.

With a high-number tangent ogive like the BIBs & maybe the newer Berger Hybrids, I've never heard of a jump over .020 helping any. Most find better luck with .005 off "just touching" (small jump), to a hard jam. Somewhere in there.

There are other good 6mm long-range bullets out there, but I've no information on them.

Primers -- People I trust seem to have best luck with the CCI 450s in the Dasher.

I suspect success lies somewhere in the powder/bullet/seating depth choices, rather than neck tension. But if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time today :rolleyes:
 
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Woodchuck2 said:
Maybe it's not the necks I'm seeing on the target. It is just obvious that the tension is different so I figured it was causing a difference in velocity. I really need to be at the range practicing more often, I just thought neck tension was more of an issue.
Click to expand...

How many times have you fired the cases? I have found that one must anneal their case necks to maintain consistent neck tension, case to case. I try to anneal them afterr the 6th firing. Sometimes I get beyond that though. I believe I begin to notice difference in neck tension after 3 or 4 firings after annealing. A friend who does a lot of shooting and keeps meticulous records of everything he does, shooting related,has found that the best accuracy cones from the second firing after annealing and beins to deteriate after the 5th firing.
 
Woodchuck2--A lot of our manufacturers give us a system like expanding the necks (their exp), then using their mandrel for the Neck Turning Tool that is supposed to be a very close fit to the case and just about every system works to an extent, but that doesn't guarantee anything. Of all the words written about neck turning few mention that the id of the case has to be very close case to case to get desired results, we just assume that the system guarantees this, expanders are good for taking dents out of necks, but the Lee Collet Die w/ the proper mandrel (od close to the NT mandrel) will give you damn good id's. Just my opinion, there is other ways to get desired results I suppose.
 
Woodchuck2 said:
Maybe it's not the necks I'm seeing on the target. It is just obvious that the tension is different so I figured it was causing a difference in velocity. I really need to be at the range practicing more often, I just thought neck tension was more of an issue.
Click to expand...
If you are able to feel an obvious difference in the pressure required to seat the bullets you need to relook everything. If you are using light neck tension you will feel a bigger difference in seating pressure variation from round to round than with heavy neck tension.

Determining seating pressure using a Wilson type seater;
-if you can seat the bullets with just thumb pressure, consider this as light neck tension.
-if you have to use the heel of your hand, consider this as medium neck tension.
-if you have to use your arbor press, consider this as high neck tension.

Measuring case necks over the seated bullets how much difference in diameter are you getting?
 
Could be bullet to twist combo. Like to heavy a bullet for twist. I like what Charles said. I would be looking elsewhere for accuracy. For a 6 Dasher to shoot bad at 100 they would have to be turned really bad. They usually even shoot good fireforming. I like the K&M real easy to adjust. If i use a drill;i use an electric with the one that has the adjustment on the trigger and slow down enough so you don't get a lot of heat. I also use two turners set up so i don't cut a lot on the last pass. Matt
 
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