NBRSA is considering the bore diameter and case capacity limtations for Hunter Rifles

J

Joe Krupa

Member
There is a proposal to be considered in this year's NBRSA National meeting to drop the bore diameter (.236) and case capacity (45.5 grains of water - same as a .30-30) minimum limitations that currently exist in Hunter Rifle Competition. The current rule is shown in Section N.2. (h) of version #37 of the NBRSA rule book. The new porposal can be seen on the NBRSA webpage.

That would allow the popular 6 PPC and .30BR accuracy calibers to be used in Hunter Competition.

David Halblom is the representative to the NBRSA Board on Score Shooting and may wish to get your feedback. You may also wish to contact your NBRSA Regional Director with your comments or thoughts.

Joe Krupa
NBRSA Eastern Regional Director
 
To add to the above, and noting that I'm not an IBS officer, I had a brief discussion with the IBS President last evening to understand what our sister organization does with their score program on a practical match basis.

For all except the IBS Score Nationals, in IBS score matches they have combined Hunter and Varmint Hunter into what is termed "six-power" class in a manner similar to what they have done in VFS; that being except for the Score Nationals, the IBS has combined Light Varmint and Heavy Varmint in VFS. The NBRSA simply recognizes a 13 1/2 pound class (with the related Heavy Varmint rules) for VFS.

Reducing the case capacity doesn't mean you can't shoot a .30X47 in the Hunter Rifle class, it simply means that you don't have to choose a caliber that has the same felt recoil as a 45.5 grain capacity case (like a .30 BR or a 6 PPC). The bore restriction removal would mean that one could shoot a .22 centerfire cartridge in Hunter Rifle if they chose.

Again, this is a consideration for the NBRSA Score committee (headed by David Halblom) to consider and make recommendation upon for the 2012 NBRSA National Meeting. Comment should be directed to David and/or your specific NBRSA Regional Director.

Additionally, "constructive" comments can be added on this forum thread to assist the Directors and Score Committee on this item.
 
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Joe,

Joe Krupa said:
To add to the above, and noting that I'm not an IBS officer, I had a brief discussion with the IBS President last evening to understand what our sister organization does with their score program on a practical match basis.

For all except the IBS Score Nationals, in IBS score matches they have combined Hunter and Varmint Hunter into what is termed "six-power" class in a manner similar to what they have done in VFS; that being except for the Score Nationals, the IBS has combined Light Varmint and Heavy Varmint in VFS. The NBRSA simply recognizes a 13 1/2 pound class (with the related Heavy Varmint rules) for VFS.

Reducing the case capacity doesn't mean you can't shoot a .30X47 in the Hunter Rifle class, it simply means that you don't have to choose a caliber that has the same felt recoil as a 45.5 grain capacity case (like a .30 BR or a 6 PPC). The bore restriction removal would mean that on could shoot a .22 centerfire cartridge in Hunter Rifle if they chose.

Again, this is a consideration for the NBRSA Score committee (headed by David Halblom) to consider and make recommendation upon for the 2012 NBRSA National Meeting. Comment should be directed to David and/or your specific NBRSA Regional Director.

Additionally, "constructive" comments can be added on this forum thread to assist the Directors and Score Committee on this item.
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I'm not sure I follow your IBS explanation. There are two distinct 6 power classes in IBS...Hunter and Varmint Hunter. Both follow the same gun config rules except the varmint hunter class has no minimum case capacity rule. They are shot as separate classes in all IBS matches including the National matches. In fact, all three classes have to be offered in order to get a sanctioned match approval.

What is combined is this; when the two 6 power classes are shot the results are combined for IBS SCORE SHOOTER OF THE YEAR points determination. Otherwise they are two very distinct classes. Here is a link to the IBS 100-200 Nationals this year in Holton, MI. 3 class winners.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/score/2012/Holton/Nationals/12Natls.php


Regarding VFS, there are two gun weights recognized, 13.5 and 10.5 lbs. They are shot as one VFS class. What is separated is records. IBS has separate records for the VFS 13.5 lb guns and the 10.5 lb guns....records only.

Very interesting discussion. Thanks for your NBRSA input. --Greg
 
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Greg,

Just stating what Jeff told me last evening. As I said, I'm not an IBS official and I haven't shot an IBS-registered score match in a while.

Perhaps what Jeff's comment related to is that these two "classes" are shot in the same manner at each match, but with records and Nationals separating the classes, along with trophies at those matches which decide to do so.

What the point of this thread is that we (both organizations) need in my view to review the particiation and rules limitations in this, as well as all other classes to determine if the restriction is limiting the participation. Many who I have discussed this with see that it does. If that is so, then we need to determine what changes, if any, need to be made to not restrict participation and growth.

In a similar vein, there are two NBRSA proposals this year to review the sporter class:

1) Proposed from the Gulf Coast Region to basically remove the caliber restriction and relax the stock restrictions to encourage experimentation (a simplification of the proposal, at best), and

2) Proposed from the Soutwest Region to eliminate Sporter from the Nationals and replace it with an Experimental class to be shot only at regional matches until a "new gun" is established.


I encourage each of you to discuss the agenda items with your Regional Director. If it already isn't out there, these agenda items should be on the NBRSA website shortly.
 
Joe, it will be interesting to see if there is sentiment in IBS for case capacity elimination. It seems that several very active hunter gun shooters think so. I shoot 6X once in a while, and my opinion would be to eliminate it. Something has to be done, in IBS at least, to bring get the thin numbers of 6X shooters all competing against one another in one 6X class.
 
BUT, if the two classes are maintained, how is there going to be everyone under one roof? What everyone is saying is to, in essense, abandon the Hunter Class. It will be interesting to see which class is eliminated.
 
I don't "get" this perspective . . .

Pete Wass said:
BUT, if the two classes are maintained, how is there going to be everyone under one roof? What everyone is saying is to, in essense, abandon the Hunter Class. It will be interesting to see which class is eliminated.
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Pete, I do not comprehend this view: Nothing would be eliminated; the two classes would be combined into one class, thus increasing the level of competition, and reducing the cost of running an event. Under the [IBS] current rules, the host club must provide awards for each of the two 6X classes, and sadly, in most of IBS territory, that means fewer than 5 contestants per class (VH/H) per event: for the clubs, not a very appealing business situation.

No one would "lose" anything - all existing VH and Hunter Class rifles would be usable - the ONLY thing "eliminated" would be the antiquated notion that there is a difference in precision between the various calibers and case-capacities . . . we would simply take what we believe to be the best and compete for one trophy and one set of HOF/SOY points . . . . which, as I understand it, is already happening - again, nothing eliminated, but, "down the road", possibly a LOT to gain. If we are not growing, then we are dying . . .

Currently, within the NBRSA, this specific topic is not an issue - (so far) there are only two [score] classes: Hunter and VFS. Therefore, it is hoped that eliminating the caliber and case capacity restrictions, via eliminating the "recoil" argument, would promote more participation in the dying Hunter Class.

I will confess [to believing] that, regardless of afilliation - IBS/NBRSA - any change in the scope magnification, and we might as well eliminate the Hunter Class and go straight to VFS only. If we do not act NOW, the redundant LV/HV may well be the only future. :p As Randy Perkowski (sp? sorry, Randy) so aptly pointed out in the other thread (the one which got this started), the challenge of the 6x magnification IS the defining attribute of the Hunter Class - all the other stuff (weight/forend/etc.), while somewhat of a handicap is just, "along for the ride".;) RG
 
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Now we are communicating! Keep the dialogue coming.

I once heard someone say the when the only tool we have is a hammer, all problems become a nail.
 
Joe Krupa said:
For all except the IBS Score Nationals, in IBS score matches they have combined Hunter and Varmint Hunter into what is termed "six-power" class in a manner similar to what they have done in VFS;
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Joe
This is completely incorrect, Varmint-Hunter and Hunter classes are two completely different classes at all IBS registered matches. They are combined for SSOY points and either one can be shot along with a VFS rifle for the IBS 2 Gun Score award and record. They are separate classes on the match contracts I write, they are separate in the IBS records (for all matches), and they are separate at the matches. I have seen clubs (have done it myself) combine the two classes for awards purposes when turnout is small. But they are still 2 classes. They may be combined for Prec Rifleman points also I don't really recall.

My fellow E-Board member Jeff Stover is simply incorrect in what he told you, or possibly you misunderstood him. I believe I am correct in stating Jeff has not shot a lot of IBS score matches. I am an IBS official and have been shooting IBS Score continuously since 1982.

As to if their should be two different classes or not that is a totally different question. In retrospect it was an ill conceived adjustment to try and make a merger back with NBRSA work as IBS had .222's and PPC's in their Hunter class in the first place. With small turnouts in both classes these days I think a serious look should be taken about re-combining the two classes. Perhaps with Separate records maintained as is done with LV/HV in VFS.

Dick Grosbier
IBS Vice President & Webmaster
 
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Whatever you do here - be careful. There are hundreds of "nuances" involved with such a change and the average competitor/attendee will sit on the sidelines until it shows up in the rule book and then come out of the woodwork in droves explaining how stupid the change is.

To those that shoot and run these classes/events:
Speak now! The folks involved in this discussion can make it happen and likely will. If you see something you don't like or would be a significant downside - say so.
 
Dropping the bore size & case capacity rule for both the NBRSA and IBS 6 Power (aka Hunter, HBR and Varmint Hunter) makes sense on so many levels. It would level the playing field for current competitors while providing for future growth in both organizations 6 Power classes by making the guns easier and more economical to build. It also opens up more choices for competitors for chamberings based on the competitors perception or experience on what works best for them.

Things move at a glacial pace when it comes to rule changes in BR. And that's not a bad thing....keeps things level and we're not forced to make exspensive changes at the stroke of a pen like other equipment-driven sports. This change would help the long term outlook of these classes. Those of us that enjoy the challenge of 6 Power BR shooting need to look to the future. Lets leave the class in better shape than we found it, 'ya know?

Good shootin'. -Al
 
R.G. Robinett said:
Pete, I do not comprehend this view: Nothing would be eliminated; the two classes would be combined into one class, thus increasing the level of competition, and reducing the cost of running an event. Under the [IBS] current rules, the host club must provide awards for each of the two 6X classes, and sadly, in most of IBS territory, that means fewer than 5 contestants per class (VH/H) per event: for the clubs, not a very appealing business situation.

No one would "lose" anything - all existing VH and Hunter Class rifles would be usable - the ONLY thing "eliminated" would be the antiquated notion that there is a difference in precision between the various calibers and case-capacities . . . we would simply take what we believe to be the best and compete for one trophy and one set of HOF/SOY points . . . . which, as I understand it, is already happening - again, nothing eliminated, but, "down the road", possibly a LOT to gain. If we are not growing, then we are dying . . .

Currently, within the NBRSA, this specific topic is not an issue - (so far) there are only two [score] classes: Hunter and VFS. Therefore, it is hoped that eliminating the caliber and case capacity restrictions, via eliminating the "recoil" argument, would promote more participation in the dying Hunter Class.

I will confess [to believing] that, regardless of afilliation - IBS/NBRSA - any change in the scope magnification, and we might as well eliminate the Hunter Class and go straight to VFS only. If we do not act NOW, the redundant LV/HV may well be the only future. :p As Randy Perkowski (sp? sorry, Randy) so aptly pointed out in the other thread (the one which got this started), the challenge of the 6x magnification IS the defining attribute of the Hunter Class - all the other stuff (weight/forend/etc.), while somewhat of a handicap is just, "along for the ride".;) RG
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I think the only issue is the long standing records. They don't matter a whole lot to me because I didn't set any of them. I guess it's the same situation with LV and HV in VFS. Why not eliminate LV if we are going to clean things up? I would be in favor of reducing the VH caliber to .243 or smaller though.

I don't have the same view on competition. I have never felt it is about the number of shooters but the scores shot. If someone shows with a full 308 Hunter gun and shoots 25 xes ( what is required to break the current record) and that person is shooting against one or two other shooters, is that an achievement or is it not because there weren't 14 or so other folks there shooting Hunter Class? When one gets into this, we are a group of individuals competing against all the faults we carry around with us. Many have the equipment and ability to shoot 250-25 with a full 308 but making all of it work without making a mistake is the problem. Simply shootint in the presence of others doesn't make any of that any better or worse, it just is what it is.
 
Dick - I may have misunderstood Jeff. I just wrote what I thought I heard.

The point of this is that some (perhaps many) of our shooters have asked that the bore and case capcity be looked at in Hunter rifles. The NBRSA is doing so this year. If this is something that NBRSA shooters wish to look at, perhaps the IBS would, too. This, of course, would not be without some constirnation and controversy. Not everyone is comfortable with change. But, the question still remains as to whether the larger case and bore cause some issue with the 10-pound, six-power class. You have the numbers of how many shoot these classes at the IBS Nationals. Is that something that you would wish to share to demonstrate that this is a large and growing involvement?


Pete - on the records issue, that is why they made asterisks.


Wilbur - you are absolutely correct about speaking up. This is a great forum to do so real time. The biggest concern is that those who have the most to lose from a change would be the loudest to speak. It's the larger majority who decide that "the larger case doesn't make sense, so I will just shoot VFS or something else" and say nothing that won't have a positive impact on the decision.

I'll stick with my statement that if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. I view the biggerst obsticle that we have in growing our sport is apathy and just keep doing the same thing over and over without questioning if it needs some positive change. There is no growth without pain. The problem is that we aren't growing.

I'm with Wilbur, keep the dialogue going so that we can move forward. (It is recognized that Wilbur is a repected past-Director and not naive about the shooting sports.)
 
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Joe Krupa said:
Dick - I may have misunderstood Jeff. I just wrote what I thought I heard.

You have the numbers of how many shoot these classes at the IBS Nationals. Is that something that you would wish to share to demonstrate that this is a large and growing involvement?
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Joe
The number of shooters at the IBS Nationals is publicly posted information it is certainly not "large and growing involvement" . What is not readily stated in those results where there were a total of 10 6x Guns is that in Nearby Wisconsin I believe there were over 40 Hunter guns at the Van Dyne match which is an example of a colossal scheduling snafoo on the part of the club that held the IBS Nationals.
 
Those numbers, regardless of the snafu, show that hunters guns have a significant following.

Scheduling has always been problematic. But, with positive working together things can become considerably easier.

Regards.
 
Dick,
I think Jeff should do a look at the case capacity rule in the hunter class with an eye to boosting 6x shooter numbers. He's good at polls. Attracting new shooters is vitally important. So is encouraging those already committed to score Benchrest to think about shooting more a la six X. Conglomerating six x shooting into one class would certainly increase competition. Winning is nice but if you beat yourself, what's the point? No one shooting Benchrest has any aversion to competition.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Joe
The number of shooters at the IBS Nationals is publicly posted information it is certainly not "large and growing involvement" . What is not readily stated in those results where there were a total of 10 6x Guns is that in Nearby Wisconsin I believe there were over 40 Hunter guns at the Van Dyne match which is an example of a colossal scheduling snafoo on the part of the club that held the IBS Nationals.
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This absolutely begs the question...How did 40 out of 50 6x guns wind up at Van Dyne for a club match vs, the national championship match, just across Lake Michigan from one another?
 
The numbers from the Van Dyne, Wi. NBRSA Wi. State Championships: 48 of us.

There were over 50 competitors there. Several local shooters chose to 'sit out' the event so they didn't have to run five relays as Van Dyne has 12 benches.

Good shootin'. -Al
 
mwezell said:
This absolutely begs the question...How did 40 out of 50 6x guns wind up at Van Dyne for a club match vs, the national championship match, just across Lake Michigan from one another?
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It could probably be summed up as loyalty. I believe the Van Dyne match is an annual event and not a "Club" match but an NBRSA registered match.
When made known of the conflict the Michigan club just felt they needed to do the match on the weekend they had picked. A large number of regular 6x shooters that did a good job of supporting the Michigan Nationals two years earlier expressed their view on the conflict by voting with their feet and going to Wisconsin ! This should be a valuable lesson to all clubs, the mere fact is is a nationals does not mean people will automatically come.

If I have any of this wrong I am confident Al Nyhus will correct me.
 
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