minimal resizing?

C

crappie

Guest
I have a batch of shells that are giving me a hard bolt in my 22-250 factory chamber. Id prefer not to fully resize the brass as i prefer it to fit the chamber as good as possible and be as centered as possible. Im using redding comp dies and just neck sizing. The brass neck is expanding almost .010 upon firing. Im kicking around the idea of either getting a full body bushing die or getting an extra die and having it honed for a loose neck. Thinking id be better off to size the body and shoulder and leave the bottom of the neck larger diameter to center the bullet better. Im not seated into the lands as magazine length limits me.
 
body die, doh.

I guess its been to long since i did much reloading. I only use the body die on new brass then i go along time with only neck sizing. Anyways i forgot or didnt realize the body die only sizes the body, so i guess im good. Although i wanted to basically do the body, bump the shoulder and reduce the neck by about .002, beggers cant be choosers. So brings me to a new question:D....
Is it possible to resize the body of loaded rounds in a body die??? Im guessing thats asking to much.
 
The problem with body sizing a loaded round is that when the body is reduced, the shoulder will move forward. If your rounds are chambering hard already, this will not help.

A Full Length bushing die, properly adjusted to set the shoulder back .001-.002 will do everything you are asking for.

As far as the neck expanding .010 after firing, the only fix is to get thicker brass. Maybe run some .308 brass through your sizer and see how thick the necks end up.
 
Body dies work like a bushing FL die, without the bushing. They can be set to bump the shoulder as well as reduce the diameter of the body. As to your strategy of only neck sizing, I don't think that it is a workable solution for reloading the same brass several times in a 22-250 that is being shot up to speed, and while you are figuring this out, be sure to keep your locking lugs greased.

One thing that I can tell you is that brass will not all become tight at the same time, and a tight case and one that is not will not group together.

If you want straight ammo for that factory chamber, try this. Size the body, bumping the shoulder a thou from a tight case, and then run the brass through a Lee Collet die. I think that you will be pleasantly surprised as to how straight your ammo is and how easily it chambers.
 
A body die should bump the shoulders also.
If your necks are expanding .010 thats a huge difference even for a factory rifle.
Reduce a fired neck .002 and your bullets will just fall in the case.

Its not recommended to size loaded ammo for safety reasons.
I've done a few and I'm sure others have also but generally its frowned upon.
 
necks

Ive measured my 3 factory rifles and all the brass expands aprox the same .008-.010 for all 3. The idea was to bump the shoulder and then the neck slightly so it would not be as radically changing the necks in one step when i hit them with the neck die for final sizing. I did run out and use the body die and as stated it did decrease the headspace or increase the length to the shoulder, I guess ill get some dykem and go see where my 22-250 shells are getting tight, they have been fired 2x.

I checked a long time ago on my 243 that same deal, the necks expand .010 then the resizing die without the button takes the neck down aprox .006-.007 under loaded round size. So the brass in the neck is being moved aprox .017 every firing. This is a forester die and im going to send it in and have it honed out a bit. For $10 its a steal. I asked redding about honing a die out and they want $26 to do it.
 
Simple Investment

Get the Redding Competition Shellholder Set.

Each shellholder is changed in 0.002 increments.

I use them with a Bump Die or any case sizing die.

Follow the instructions. Very easy to use.

I also have the ones for Magnum cases.

Don't forget to square up your dies when setting them up in the press for the first time.
 
crappie ....
The best way to make your handloads fit your chamber "perfectly", is to measure one of your fired cases, and then compare your handloads to that measurement. I developed the Digital Headspace Gauge to do exactly that. It displays the exact clearance that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR particular chamber (at the shoulder).

This gauge helps you adjust your FL die, so that your handloads will fit (and center) perfectly in your chamber.

Check it out on our website:
WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM

- Innovative
 
The Redding body die will bump.........

the shoulder, size the body and, unlike other "box dies", will only neck size the neck. For a stock rifle and dies, you are moving in the right direction, but the "best price" isn't always the best solution. Sometimes it can leaving you chasing your tail, when you aren't tearing out your hair. "Measure twice, cut(or hone) once". Before you wind up "honing" anything, you may want to consult with a good machinist's foreman first, after you buy Larry's gauge(OK, Larry, I want a money order this time, that last check bounced!! :D:D ). You may want to take examples with you of the unsized empty, the FL sized, & neck sized cases w/the primers out(use the neck die w/the bushing removed). You could also call Larry, I'm sure he'll be able to explain it on the 'phone to remove any confusion. And let me know if you buy that gauge, :D I wanna be sure I get my "cut". Seriously, Larry, that is a good-looking gauge....I can see I'm going to have to bookmark your site!!!;)
 
The problem with shooters using a Bump Die (or neck die) is they don't take into consideration that the body of rifle cases are TAPERED. Have you ever noticed that it takes real force to squeeze your case with a FL die? That happens near the base of the case (just above the web). Shooters that ignore this area of the case body will run into chambering problems (sooner or later), and they usually asume their cases are too long. Sometimes they're correct, but it's very common to have tight fitting handloads because of case width problems. Remember, rifle cases are tapered and only a FL die will resize this area of your case. When a FL die is properly setup, it does the job well enough to satisfy any benchrest shooter.

The trick is to setup your FL dies accurately, (you'll never get it right if you just follow the directions that come with your dies). Die manufacturers want to "keep it simple" for the average reloader. However, for those that want the best handloads, you'll need to measure your cases.

Read my website for more Tech Tips on on this subject.

- Innovative
 
Hornady sells what used to be the Stoney point gauge. Sinclair sell a similar one. They both work as attachments to dial or digital calipers. Since the measurements that you are interested in is comparative and not absolute, and should be taken with the same tool, calipers that read to .001 direct are plenty good for the job. Just remember to remove the fired primer before measuring a fired case, so that any protrusion or crater will not influence your measurement. Also, it is a good idea to bump ( with a FL or body die) relative to a tight case. Should you have a rifle rebarreled, have the gunsmith cut the front of the chamber, just enough to include the shoulder. in a short, squared off piece of barrel. This is a handy gauge to have. Some call it a "gizzy" or barrel stub. I too would skip the bump die, for the reason that Larry mentioned. Forster will hone the necks of their FL dies to your specified diameter for less than $20. All in all, a FL die, adjusted for correct bump, with a properly dimensioned neck ID, will give you very straight brass, that should shoot very well. Almost everyone that I know that shoots Benchrest, FL sizes every firing. Some have found that a custom one piece die does a very good job of keeping things straight. You may well not want to spring for the cost of a custom die, but having Forster hone out the neck of one of their FL dies would be cheaper than some of the alternatives that you are currently considering.
 
Boyd .......
I don't want to be arguementive, especially since I've seen your name on a number of very good posts, but grinding the necks on dies is a waste of time. Due to the extreme variation in neck thickness, it's far better to use bushing type dies to control neck tension. I make a lot of .308 Win. handloads, and I use 3 different bushings with different brands (and different lots) of brass. My Redding (or Forster) bushing type dies always produce handloads with .001" runout or less.

I used to use homemade "gizzys" and widgets of all kinds to accomplish different reloading tasks. I got tired of balancing cases on the blade of calipers, and searching for the right size attachments. That's why I decided to design easy to use reloading tools that will give the most consistent readings.

- Innovative
 
Larry,
If one looks at the amount of "work" that is being done by the expander ball on a typical one piece die, he will surely see that the die manufacturer has erred on the side of safety to a degree that even taking into account the variance in neck wall thickness from brand to brand, and lot to lot, the ID in the neck portion of the die is smaller than it has to be. Also, if one reduces the amount of expansion that is required, and uses a good dry lube inside of the necks, the amount of expander pull during sizing can be significantly reduced, to the point that the "evil" expander ball does not cause necks to be cocked during sizing.

If one is shooting a factory chamber, with generous clearance on the necks of loaded rounds, one can run into problems with capturing the end of the neck in a bushing's lead in chamfer. There are also some issues with bushing float that can have negative effects, as well as bushing concentricity and squareness that can also come into play in tight neck situations. Bushing dies are almost always better than a typical one piece die, but may not be as good as an optimized one piece, even for unturned necks.

Some time ago, I was discussing the relative merits of Lee Collet dies a compared with bushing neck dies, with a bullet mfg. technical rep. He did a side by side comparison with unturned fired brass from a factory chamber, and the collet die won. That is why I suggested the body die and collet die approach in an earlier post. My later post draws on my experience with my Savage .220 Swift. I have a CH/4D FL die for it that has a custom neck ID. It works much better than the stock die that I was previously using, and produces admirably straight cases, when used with care. One of the first things that I would encourage a factory rifle shooter to do is to pick a brand of cases, and stick with it. This allows one to pick a bushing or custom sizer neck ID that is a better fit.

We in Benchrest generally turn necks and have minimal neck expansion. What works best can be a little different for unturned necks and factory chambers. By letting an expander do just a little work, but not too much, the uniformity of untruned neck IDs can actually be enhanced without cocking necks during sizing.
 
Boyd ......

The expander ball was designed to resize the neck (from the inside) to maintain a uniform ID, regardless of the OD. Most everyone agrees that the expander button is a bad idea. It was another attempt of die manufacturers to keep things simple for reloaders to operate. The Lee Collet idea sounds good, and lots of shooters seem to like them. However, the runout on my handloads can't possibly be improved by using any other type of die, so I've never experimented with the Lee collet die.

My .308 handloads are made specificly for each individual rifle, and they are separated by manufacturers headstamp for each rifle they're made for. That's why I use different size neck bushings. I'm not a formal benchrest shooter, but my groups are almost always half MOA. I mostly shoot top quality tactical rifles and accurized hunting rifles. I've found that when my cases are resized accurately and if they're perfectly concentric, there's no benefit to turning the necks, especially when cycling them through a magazine.

- Innovative
 
Larry,
Sounds like you have a good handle on things. I agree that there are many situations where neck turning adds nothing to on-target (the only place it matters) results.

As to the evil expander ball, they are a problem because they are usually combined with a fixed die ID that results in enough pull on the neck, as the expander ball is being pulled back through, that the shoulder gives way asymmetrically resulting in a cocked neck. The bullet follows the neck, as it is seated, and viola, crooked ammunition.

On the other hand, if you have a Redding S type FL die, you have the option of using a decapping pin retainer, or an expander ball. If the die is used with turned necks, the retainer is the way to go. If unturned necks are the order of the day, the expander ball will give more uniform neck IDs, and by picking a bushing size that only gives the slightest feel as the expander is pulled through the neck (with a good dry lube) the pull on the case stays small enough that case necks are NOT cocked.
It is the typical mismatch between die neck IDs and expander ball ODs that has resulted it expander balls getting a bad rep. By choosing the correct bushing size. or specifying the correct neck ID in a one piece die this can be avoided.
 
Boyd, in case you aren't aware..........

you can use the expander on the Redding Competition Dies as well. If you look at the Redding catalog, there is a carbide expander for the comp. dies. Look at the last column to the right on the "bushing style dies" pages. Ex.: 222 Remington, order #98123, "carbide kit for comp. bushing die" is available, it is a complete decapping stem with expander ball, decapping pin, and retainer. ;)
 
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