Michigan 2009 score challenge

[LARRY FEUSSE]

While Tom Majewski is trying to get his computer sorted out, he has asked me to post the "up to the minute" plans for the Michigan Score Challenge for 2009. There has been a lot of planning and scheduling with the 4 ranges involved and we have tried to step around a lot of other matches of importance. That can be tricky.

While we have tried to get everything as good as possible, nothing is perfect. At this time only the matches at Oscoda and Holton will be sanctioned. The matches at the other ranges will still be part of the Challenge, they just will not have IBS recognition, which is OK. Maybe next year, since it is intended that this be an ongoing program.

The main thing is that we provide a good opportunity for new shooters to get aquainted with benchrest and that everyone have a good time.

We welcome all suggestions and ideas. Thanks to everyone who has been involved so far. Without your help, we couldn't do it. Everyone has been just great!

Sincerely,
Tom & Larry

 

[jaberegg]

Thanks for all the hard work everyone. This should make for the beginning of a great match for Michigan area shooters. Only problem, my factory guns don't fit the requirements so looks I'll be looking for a new gun. Again, many thanks. See ya'all next year.

Jeff Aberegg

 

[Dick Wright]

Why...

outlaw the 6PPC in Factory Rifle? Factory's do make 6 PPCs.

If I wanted to do well in the class I would simply find a hot shooting 6 BR and do whatever is allowable within the rules to improve it.

I think that rule's a mistake.

Dick

 

[matt_gu3]

Thanx guys

I can now start building my 2009 Benchrest calendar. Hope to see you guys at all of these events.
Matt

 

[LARRY FEUSSE]

It is our intention to conduct the matches as much the same as possible weather the match is IBS sanctioned or not. That means if most of the matches are by IBS rules then the remainder should also. However, each club where matches are held is ultimately the final voice in the way the match is conducted, especially if not required to follow IBS procedures. We will try to conduct all the matches in a uniform and safe way with the cooperation of those in charge. It should not be an issue that would hinder the Challenge or the safety or enjoyment for the shooters. Equipment will be checked to make sure it falls within the appropriate specifications.

In the factory class we are trying to attract new shooters who either have not competed before or are relativly inexperienced. These folks are bringing the gun they have to the matches, not something that they have specifically selected as a sleeper so they can win running away. That is not the intent of the factory class. We want to protect these new shooters from the experts and give them a fighting chance to win something with their basic equipment and give them the desire to continue shooting in matches. We do not want to scare them away or give them the impression that they are just fodder for someone else who has the experience to win at any cost. We want to help the new shooters, encourage them and be mentors to them. A 6 PPC with it's reputation and heritage as potentially the most accurate thing around is certainly not in the same league as the factory class rifles we hope to attract. Let the 6PPC rifles compete in the custom class where they will have a very good chance of being the winners anyway.

Thank you, everyone for these comments and suggestion. Please don't hesitate to give us your opinions. We learn and improve by listening and using what others contribute.

Sincerely,
Larry

 

[jaberegg]

Then that means I can pull out the XBR 222, put in a 2 pound trigger and 12x scope an compete? Is the 22 PPC going to be allowed in Factory? I use to hear that, Sako, Cooper an 40x's shouldn't be allowed in Factory because they are so accurate. Don't want to start anything just want to make sure before changing my gun around to get it into the Factory class. Thanks.

Jeff Aberegg

 

[Pete Wass]

Referees;

I would like to see the IBS rules as the rules being followed at all the ranges: Two referees, the presence of a scale and test weight and all VfS and Hunter/Varmint Hunter rifles weighed, and the use of IBS range commands. In short, all IBS rules except range registration will be the rule of the day.

Generally, there are 3 Referees apponted and often an alternate, so decisions can be made in a timely fashion.

 

[mikesshop]

A Good Mix

If anyone finds a way to satisfy 100% of the people, please sit down and author a book on the topic. From my experience it is impossible. Tom and Larry have done and excellent job and have been very fair in there assesment of all the input and compiling a set of rules.
It is common sense that we should use the same range commands and procedures at all the ranges while shooting the score championship. I don't see any problem there. Should probably put them in print so the local range officers can have them for review ahead of time.
It has always been the policy at Harrison to designate two referees prior to the match and there has never been a problem but if you think we need three give it some consideration.

Mike
Harrison, Michigan

 

[Pete Wass]

With two

What does one do if they don't agree?

 

[Dick Grosbier]

we have considered the scorer as one of the referees. When we have gone to a third and fourth relay, we have named three or four referees so that the referee who is on the line at the time isn't disturbed.

Wow Francis !
That strikes me as just a really bad idea , the reason I say that is if a shooter is not happy with how the scorer scored his target he goes to the referees to get some hopefully unbiased people to review his target. If the first two referees cannot agree on what the score is the third referee is called to break the tie.

You are starting the referee process with one referee who has already made up his mind about the target so the shooter starts out in the beginning with one referee that has his mind set against him. To me that is a situation that is already loaded against the contestant

I will further state the IBS rules require two of the three referees not be members of the sponsoring club. It seems pretty obvious to me this is the rule to get the contestant a fair review of his problem . Personally at the matches I am involved with I try to get all three referees from outside the club to avoid any appearance of local club favoritism.

Dick

 

[Hal D.]

Wow Francis !
That strikes me as just a really bad idea , the reason I say that is if a shooter is not happy with how the scorer scored his target he goes to the referees to get some hopefully unbiased people to review his target. If the first two referees cannot agree on what the score is the third referee is called to break the tie.

You are starting the referee process with one referee who has already made up his mind about the target so the shooter starts out in the beginning with one referee that has his mind set against him. To me that is a situation that is already loaded against the contestant

I will further state the IBS rules require two of the three referees not be members of the sponsoring club. It seems pretty obvious to me this is the rule to get the contestant a fair review of his problem . Personally at the matches I am involved with I try to get all three referees from outside the club to avoid any appearance of local club favoritism.

Dick

Dick, please reread your post and tell me why it was OK for Score Committee members to referee ANY match, until after the conclusion of this year's Bud Pryor???

 

[Wayne Shaw]

Referees

One point that is being missed here as it pertains to IBS rules, there is a requirement for referees to be IBS members in good standing. A scorer does not have to meet that requirement, oddly enough. There is also verbiage which states there will be three referees selected for each match plus an alternate, so a referee will not have to rule on his/her own target.

 

[mikesshop]

Scoring Questions

In the last six years at Harrison, I do not recall a situation where a scorer and our two designated referees did not agree. We have only had a few challenges. We have different referees for each match and I guess we just trust each other. I can't think of anyone so desperate for $10.00 in prize money and a hat pin that they would cheat.
Two refs and a scorer has always worked but if the rules say that we need three then so be it.

Keep It Simple


Mike
Harrison, Michigan

 

[Hal D.]

In the last six years at Harrison, I do not recall a situation where a scorer and our two designated referees did not agree. We have only had a few challenges. We have different referees for each match and I guess we just trust each other. I can't think of anyone so desperate for $10.00 in prize money and a hat pin that they would cheat.
Two refs and a scorer has always worked but if the rules say that we need three then so be it.

Keep It Simple


Mike
Harrison, Michigan

The reason for three referee's is obviously to break a tie. The official scorer can't be a referee as he/she has already judged the target...so can't be expected to be objective. Same goes for the Score Committee members. Say for instance that five Score committee members serve as referee's at a Grand Agg tournament. Now say that there is a target each day that is protested by the same competitor. The referee's judge each target, and make the final match decision. Now lets say that at the end of the tournament, this set of targets is deemed to have possibly set a new world record. The targets are then signed by the referee's and the range officer, and sent off to be judged for a new record. Here's the problem...The very people that have already made a decision regarding these targets, signed the targets, are now judging the targets again for a new record. Does this strike all of you as a far fetched scenario? Well I can assure you, it is not. I have the targets to prove it. Until recently, most all of the big IBS score matches were set up just like this. And if you go to the IBS website and click on Agenda Items to be voted on for this years annual meeting, you will see that the Score committee would like to go back to the way it was. Also on the agenda for the winter meeting is this item:


F. Scoring 7) Official Record Scoring Procedure a. At the end of an aggregate or grand aggregate where a potential record has been set, the Prospective record aggregate targets are to be turned over to the Host Club Director. b. Prior to being turned over to the Host Club Director, the competitor is responsible to get the targets identified and signed by all match Referees and the Range Officer. The competitor shall be responsible for submitting all possible record targets, including record aggregates, to the Host Club Director on or before the last day of the Tournament from which the targets were fired. The competitor is to fill out a records submission form, or a reasonable facsimile, listing his/her name, address, date potential record was shot, what class, and aggregate was being contested, the caliber he/she was shooting and the club name where the potential record was shot. The Host Club Director will retain one copy of the letter for file and will forward the letter, identified targets and backers (if applicable) to the Chairperson of the Score Committee. c. The Score Chairperson shall arrange a meeting with at least three of the Score Committee members to officially score the targets. The committee members will use whatever tools or procedures they need to establish where the bullets passed through the target paper to appropriately score the targets. After Official Scoring is completed on possible record targets, the results and targets are to be forwarded to the competitor. d. Range scoring shall apply to aggregates and grand aggregates. The scores will be accepted as official scores of that match and must be honored in the placement of competitors.

Score Committee Recommendation: The Score Committee recommends this agenda item as written.

IBS Executive Board Recommendation: The Executive Board recommends that this agenda item be combined with the G#1 and add wording that effects 600 and 1000 yard record targets and place the one consolidated rule into the general tournament procedures section of the rulebook so that the record target handling procedure is handled for all disciplines on equal footing and in one place. It is also recommended that the wording be changed to state that targets are to be turned into Host Club Director on the day that the potential record is set.

As you can see, the Score Committee and Executive Board have a difference of opinion in the way this item is written. The Board recognizes that one body, the Records Committee, should handle ALL potential IBS records. The rulebook as written now, states that the Score Committee shall judge all potential Score records.

I urge all of you to read the agenda items, and come to the winter meeting and exercise your right to vote on these items.

 

[mikesshop]

Better Raise The Fees

I guess Larry and Tom better consider raising the shooting fees from $12.00 per shooter to around $250.00 so we can retain a legal team for the, "Just in case scenario".
I am beginning to appreciate our shooters at Harrison more every day for there positive attitudes and goal to come and participate and have fun. We are very lucky.

Mike

 

[Dick Wright]

Hal,

From what I've read here for years now, I think that there's something in the water... either here or out there. We have practically no controversies re: scoring at our matches. To wit...

I've probably scored 95% or more of all targets since we started our matches in 1991. Most years we have had ten one-day matches per year. In all that time, with all those matches, we've had exactly one debate re: one target. Honest. That time the person complaining about a score was a one-way-communications specialist, as in good talk-no listen. When I decided that I was talking to a stone wall and since it was my decision to make, I made the American decision. I did the right thing and mentally wrote the complainer off as a complete idiot to be watched in the future. (Details available upon email request.)

Do I make mistakes? YES but our shooters know that if a mistake is called to my attention I will cheerfully correct it with no ego or politics involved. I'm making more mistakes now than I did a few years ago and that's one reason I finally retired as match director after all those years. (That and I'm getting really old.) Besides Mike Conway is more than capable of taking over, running good matches and keeping the shooters happy. Also Mike has good help.

Should you come shoot with us, I think you would find a considerably different atmosphere at our matches. We have friends shooting together because we enjoy doing so. Most of us go out to eat together after each match. There's very little distrust (two people excepted) because it's unnecessary. We have fun at our shoots.

You really ought to try it.

Dick

 

[Hal D.]

Well, all I can say is that you are indeed lucky. You are far removed from the goings on of east coast IBS score shooting. I'm not referring to all matches here in the east, most are run well, and without incident. It's when the hierarchy of score gets involved that we have a problem. There was so much controversy that surrounded this years Bud Pryor memorial that it was embarrassing. Many shooters left with a bad feeling about their game, myself included. And this was no isolated incident. A complete control of the big IBS score matches from board members and the Score committee has been the norm in the past few years, from scoring, to stats, to referees. They show up to the Nationals and just simply take over, and run things the way they want them run. After this years Bud, there was such an uproar over the power trip of this elite group, that things have changed a little. Hopefully this trend will continue.

I help run the matches at Fairfax Rod & Gun club, and I'm betting that our matches run in the same manner that yours do. We don't have a set list of referee's either. This game is supposed to be fun, and most folks try to keep it that way. Some however, have a different agenda. It doesn't benefit me in any way to come on here and call it like I see it. But I've been witness to this kind of behavior for too long without standing up and saying anything about it. I'm fed up with it, and don't wish to remain quiet anymore.

 

[steve stanley]

Club or 1 day matches are a different atmosphere most everywhere I have shot, most all are laid back and friendly competition. The bigger state matches and nationals are a little different when you invest the time and money to shoot these matches you expect to get fair treatment and it doesn't always happen and it always seems to involve the same folks when these problems occur. We all shoot to have fun but the bigger matches involve more self-induced pressure to perform well and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you or someone else is treated unfairly because of someones personal agenda. Steve

 

[Dick Wright]

Hal and Steve...

I think we are lucky with the atmosphere at the Harrison matches and we are going to keep them that way.

One of the benefits of getting old is I have just so many matches in me each summer before I get really tired. Nowadays I avoid all matches where I have observed the things you describe.

Just FWIW one big match I absolutely trust is the Super Shoot. I've been going there a lot of years and have never found any incompetence or cheating... none at all.

One other thing I trust is Mike Conway's ability to keep the Harrison matches as they have been. Hey, he's a cop and you better not mess with him.

Hal, I couldn't agree with you more.

Dick

 

[greg]

Hal...

Well, all I can say is that you are indeed lucky. You are far removed from the goings on of east coast IBS score shooting. I'm not referring to all matches here in the east, most are run well, and without incident. It's when the hierarchy of score gets involved that we have a problem. There was so much controversy that surrounded this years Bud Pryor memorial that it was embarrassing. Many shooters left with a bad feeling about their game, myself included. And this was no isolated incident. A complete control of the big IBS score matches from board members and the Score committee has been the norm in the past few years, from scoring, to stats, to referees. They show up to the Nationals and just simply take over, and run things the way they want them run. After this years Bud, there was such an uproar over the power trip of this elite group, that things have changed a little. Hopefully this trend will continue.

I help run the matches at Fairfax Rod & Gun club, and I'm betting that our matches run in the same manner that yours do. We don't have a set list of referee's either. This game is supposed to be fun, and most folks try to keep it that way. Some however, have a different agenda. It doesn't benefit me in any way to come on here and call it like I see it. But I've been witness to this kind of behavior for too long without standing up and saying anything about it. I'm fed up with it, and don't wish to remain quiet anymore.

I was at the Bud this year. I remember the issue involving the X and the time limit. What the score committee did was go by a procedure that has been followed for years. What's with the "goings on" comment? What exactly do you mean by that?

They followed historical treatment of the situation. If you read the rules it say protest ends X minutes after the targets are hung. That verbiage in the rule book has always been read(no, I didn't say interpreted) as meaning no protest after each match's targets were hung + X minutes.

Two years ago I and some others in Maine agreed at Jim Borden's request, to review the score rules and try and correct obvious errors like spelling and to suggest rule clarifications. We did just that to the protest of targets rule. It got enough signatures to be on the agenda in 2007. It was tabled by the group. Sure, I think it needs clarification now as much as I did then. But, for anyone to suggest or implicate certain IBS people in some kind of control conspiracy is ludicrous. They are just following historical convention. Recognize that and then work to change the rules without all the inuendo. Those IBS officials have worked their hands to the bone for the benefit of IBS and have been honest, fair and predictable in their actions. If you or anyone else wants to isolate certain IBS officials, like officers or members of the score committee from performing certain functions at a shoot, fine. Establish a rule to that effect. Your suggestions about the motives of some IBS officials is puzzling me. Regards --Greg