Kelbly Actions What not to do to improve accuracy

jamesakelbly

New member
We have been hearing rumors of shooters with Kelbly actions are trying heavier 28 pound firing pin springs. The standard for Kelbly actions is 22 – 24 pound springs. The Kelbly firing pin system was copied after Remington’s 700 design and for many years we used OEM Remington complete firing pin bought directly from Remington. When Remington introduced the J Lock firing pin system, Kelbly’s started producing our own complete firing pin system. The main reason Kelbly’s has used the Remington system is the amount of time and money Remington spent on testing the firing pin system and proper ignition in 1960 (approximate). Remington and Mike Walker were looking for the most accurate system and spent several years and around 150,000.00 dollars in the quest for ultimate accuracy. Mike Walker was an avid short range benchrest shooter till he died at the age of 101 in 2013. Mike was driven to get in HOF as a shooter but was 1 point short of the ten points needed. Now that 150,000.00 dollars plus that Remington spent would be equal in today’s dollars 1,303,418.92. Mike was a close enough friend to the Kelbly’s that he told us this story.

Mike had warned us about using firing pin springs that were lighter or heavier than the 22 – 24 pound spring would greatly affect accuracy. This was proven to Remington along with the amount of fall the firing pin itself must have. The firing pin fall MUST be .240ths or longer to not have negative effect on accuracy. And many a short range BR shooter has proved this over and over again in their pursuit of better accuracy. We have also heard long range shooters find changing to a shorter length of fall and heavier firing pin springs was detrimental to accuracy.

Kelbly’s is hearing that what many of you call timing a action, that while timing the action for smooth bolt closing, many shooters are reducing the length of fall to be shorter than .240ths. This as with using a 28 pound spring will cause accuracy to suffer. In many case it causes vertical or wild shots. We have over the past several years had to replace bolts that were “timed” with new bolts that are within Kelbly specs due to inaccuracies shooters started to experience.

It seems about every five to ten years, new shooters searching for more accuracy out of their rifles, are doing the same thing that has been tried since the 1950’s. I have personally seen it since the early 1980’s when I started at Kelbly’s.

We always encourage shooters to look at ways to improve accuracy, but using a heavier firing pin springs and reducing the length of fall of the firing pin is not the answer. This has been proven over the last 60 plus years, over and over again.

Jim
 
We have been hearing rumors of shooters with Kelbly actions are trying heavier 28 pound firing pin springs. The standard for Kelbly actions is 22 – 24 pound springs. The Kelbly firing pin system was copied after Remington’s 700 design and for many years we used OEM Remington complete firing pin bought directly from Remington. When Remington introduced the J Lock firing pin system, Kelbly’s started producing our own complete firing pin system. The main reason Kelbly’s has used the Remington system is the amount of time and money Remington spent on testing the firing pin system and proper ignition in 1960 (approximate). Remington and Mike Walker were looking for the most accurate system and spent several years and around 150,000.00 dollars in the quest for ultimate accuracy. Mike Walker was an avid short range benchrest shooter till he died at the age of 101 in 2013. Mike was driven to get in HOF as a shooter but was 1 point short of the ten points needed. Now that 150,000.00 dollars plus that Remington spent would be equal in today’s dollars 1,303,418.92. Mike was a close enough friend to the Kelbly’s that he told us this story.

Mike had warned us about using firing pin springs that were lighter or heavier than the 22 – 24 pound spring would greatly affect accuracy. This was proven to Remington along with the amount of fall the firing pin itself must have. The firing pin fall MUST be .240ths or longer to not have negative effect on accuracy. And many a short range BR shooter has proved this over and over again in their pursuit of better accuracy. We have also heard long range shooters find changing to a shorter length of fall and heavier firing pin springs was detrimental to accuracy.

Kelbly’s is hearing that what many of you call timing a action, that while timing the action for smooth bolt closing, many shooters are reducing the length of fall to be shorter than .240ths. This as with using a 28 pound spring will cause accuracy to suffer. In many case it causes vertical or wild shots. We have over the past several years had to replace bolts that were “timed” with new bolts that are within Kelbly specs due to inaccuracies shooters started to experience.

It seems about every five to ten years, new shooters searching for more accuracy out of their rifles, are doing the same thing that has been tried since the 1950’s. I have personally seen it since the early 1980’s when I started at Kelbly’s.

We always encourage shooters to look at ways to improve accuracy, but using a heavier firing pin springs and reducing the length of fall of the firing pin is not the answer. This has been proven over the last 60 plus years, over and over again.

Jim

Thank you, thank you! Too many people have trended toward absolutely zero cock on close, after "feel", when they are riding a razor's edge in terms of accuracy. I've been preaching exactly what you are saying. There is an impression that one aspect makes everything better, when it does not. I will gladly fudge toward a little cock on close with good fall rather than follow the pack toward anything that takes us backward. Again, thank you! Your word carries a lot of weight....no small play on words intended.
 
Great info, James.

I have followed Kelbly’s advice on firing pin fall and spring pressure for years, and have cured more than one action’s ill ignition tendencies by modifying the trigger hangers to give at least the amount of firing pin fall and spring pressure found in a Panda.
 
Great info, James.

I have followed Kelbly’s advice on firing pin fall and spring pressure for years, and have cured more than one action’s ill ignition tendencies by modifying the trigger hangers to give at least the amount of firing pin fall and spring pressure found in a Panda.


Jackie, Are you shimming the hangers ? Tell us more ?
 
Jackie, Are you shimming the hangers ? Tell us more ?

https://benchrest.com/showthread.php?101659-Firing-pin-spring-pressure-in-Bat-Neuvo
Post #8 Jackie shows how he puts Bushings in the hanger to move the trigger back. Also post #21 by Greg Walley is IMO 1 of the most informative posts related to this subject I've read.
On a side note, I've slotted the holes that mount trigger hanger to the action and removed some material from the tab on the back of the hanger to get more pin fall. It creates more cock on close but those mysterious shots that drop out of the group magically disappear.
 
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I'm trying to learn here and sorry if this is a remedial question but how would one go about determining the length of fall for a firing pin?
 
If the arrangement is like a Remington, with the action cocked, use the bottom of the calipers like a depth mic. to measure how far out of the shroud the back of the cocking piece is, and then after pulling the trigger measure how far down into the shroud the back of the cocking piece is. By adding these two measurements you will end up with the total firing pin fall.
 
Boyd, my gunsmith showed me the method you described. But what do we do if lets say that measurement is .240 or .230? What must we do to increase it to the .250 measurement? Do we need to move the trigger forward or back? I saw something on BUllet central where they sell a infinite position hanger, is this what we need?
 
Boyd, my gunsmith showed me the method you described. But what do we do if lets say that measurement is .240 or .230? What must we do to increase it to the .250 measurement? Do we need to move the trigger forward or back? I saw something on BUllet central where they sell a infinite position hanger, is this what we need?

If your gunsmith doesn’t know then I would find a new one.?
It is back and you will notice the bolt feels harder to close, the further you go back. If I had .240 pin fall I would leave it alone. If you are actually having ignition problems at .240 maybe it needs a new Kelbly Firing pin spring.
The trigger also can impact ‘fall’ slightly depending what you have installed in the action.

Michael
 
If your gunsmith doesn’t know then I would find a new one.?
It is back and you will notice the bolt feels harder to close, the further you go back. If I had .240 pin fall I would leave it alone. If you are actually having ignition problems at .240 maybe it needs a new Kelbly Firing pin spring.
The trigger also can impact ‘fall’ slightly depending what you have installed in the action.

Michael

Michael, I didn't say my gunsmith didn't know how to fix it. He just told me how to check it. Im not having ignition problems, just trying to learn these things for myself and maybe in the future save dollars by doing things myself instead of running to a gunsmith every time something is wrong and waiting for him to have time to check it.
 
Boyd, my gunsmith showed me the method you described. But what do we do if lets say that measurement is .240 or .230? What must we do to increase it to the .250 measurement? Do we need to move the trigger forward or back? I saw something on BUllet central where they sell a infinite position hanger, is this what we need?

To increase fall, move the trigger back.
 
If the arrangement is like a Remington, with the action cocked, use the bottom of the calipers like a depth mic. to measure how far out of the shroud the back of the cocking piece is, and then after pulling the trigger measure how far down into the shroud the back of the cocking piece is. By adding these two measurements you will end up with the total firing pin fall.

Thanks Boyd
 
If you need to increase firing pin fall, we have two ways to do so. We have permanent trigger brackets that move trigger farther back in .020, .030, .040, .050, and .062 ths. We also have a adjustable trigger bracket.

Jim
 
Like most things theres a right way and wrong way.
When timed properly you maintain .240" and the factory spring.
Properly timed pandas have done pretty well
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Alex Wheeler
 
Firing Pin to Striker/cocking piece adjusting is a simple option by shortening the pin shank & re-drilling one hole.
 
Firing Pin to Striker/cocking piece adjusting is a simple option by shortening the pin shank & re-drilling one hole.

That is a fact. So long as cocking cam helix is deep enough to accommodate that operation with out cocking piece nose bottoming out.
 
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