Gene Beggs
Active member
Jim, you have been conspicuously silent lately about tuners. We are anxiously awaiting your report.
Gene Beggs
Gene Beggs
Jim Borden and Tuners
- Thread starter Gene Beggs
- Start date
G
grog
Guest
how appropriate
Gene,
This is the age of anxiety; but who would have thought it had anything to do with tuners.
Cheers Grog
Gene,
This is the age of anxiety; but who would have thought it had anything to do with tuners.
Cheers Grog
Jim Borden
New member
I am excited about tuners and have worked a little with yours, some with Shade tree and some with a brass weight threaded 32 tpi.
The data so far shows tuners work--however, I have not had the shooting time I would like to make a definitive report on the various models yet.
1 thing I can relate is that the straight cylindrical .900 barrel test (ala rimfire barrel taper) showed that the slender barrel was far too sensitive for centerfire. It was very difficult to tune and when tuned--it was inconsistent.
I have been reluctant to post the results here due to the fact I do not have teh data in the format that I wish.
Jim
The data so far shows tuners work--however, I have not had the shooting time I would like to make a definitive report on the various models yet.
1 thing I can relate is that the straight cylindrical .900 barrel test (ala rimfire barrel taper) showed that the slender barrel was far too sensitive for centerfire. It was very difficult to tune and when tuned--it was inconsistent.
I have been reluctant to post the results here due to the fact I do not have teh data in the format that I wish.
Jim
Gene Beggs
Active member
Thank you Jim. I look forward to hearing more about your experiments. Lots of exciting things are going on in our sport today. It's a good time to be involved. Keep up the good work.
Best regards,
Gene Beggs
Best regards,
Gene Beggs
P
Pete in Surry
Guest
Just as an aside
I spoke with a well known shooter last weekend who had a Shadetree on one of his 30 BR's and asked him what he had learned. He stated that the tuner did nothing to improve what he had before. Guess he had a great one to start with, eh ?
I spoke with a well known shooter last weekend who had a Shadetree on one of his 30 BR's and asked him what he had learned. He stated that the tuner did nothing to improve what he had before. Guess he had a great one to start with, eh ?
Interesting
but in score shooting we have a double trouble issue. One is tune and one is the scope. If a rifle is a bit out of tune it may be possible to rectify that with a quick adjustment. That adjustment may change point of impact enough to require a scope adjustment...remember in score we are trying to his 5 separate 1/16" dots at 100 yds. If that scope has tracking problems and takes a number of shots and movements of the knob to get it just right and settled down, then that is an additional issue to cope with. A slight change in point of impact is generally of no consequence to group shooting and generally doesn't require fiddling with the scope adjustments. I hate to adjust a scope mid-match.
but in score shooting we have a double trouble issue. One is tune and one is the scope. If a rifle is a bit out of tune it may be possible to rectify that with a quick adjustment. That adjustment may change point of impact enough to require a scope adjustment...remember in score we are trying to his 5 separate 1/16" dots at 100 yds. If that scope has tracking problems and takes a number of shots and movements of the knob to get it just right and settled down, then that is an additional issue to cope with. A slight change in point of impact is generally of no consequence to group shooting and generally doesn't require fiddling with the scope adjustments. I hate to adjust a scope mid-match.
Jim Borden
New member
I worked with an individual last weekend that had a cranky barrel and the crankiness went away with the tuner.....I find by "fixing the load" and then adjusting the tuner in slight amounts can really fine tune a rifle. Jackie has been saying that for a long time.
Jim Borden
Jim Borden
Jim Borden
New member
here is photo of brass tuner
The tuner below is a prototype--the plastic screw is a quick way to hold in place. Will probably replace with small set screw with plastic point or a piece of lead shot in hole under set screw.
This tuner is working well. I also like the Beggs Tuner and the Shade Tree tuner.
the brass one on this barrel is interchangeable with the Shade Tree tuner--both use a .9 x 32 TPI thread.
The tuner below is a prototype--the plastic screw is a quick way to hold in place. Will probably replace with small set screw with plastic point or a piece of lead shot in hole under set screw.
This tuner is working well. I also like the Beggs Tuner and the Shade Tree tuner.
the brass one on this barrel is interchangeable with the Shade Tree tuner--both use a .9 x 32 TPI thread.
R
Randy J.
Guest
Confused!
Not very strange with me of course but when I first heard of tuners being legal in IBS, I thought they still had to be within the confines of the barrel taper rules. The one I saw this past weekend looked like the one in your picture which to me doesn't fit that description. Jim, could you possibly post the rules about tuners here or let me know where I can read them again. Obviously I have some misconceptions. Again not that strange for me! Randy J.
Not very strange with me of course but when I first heard of tuners being legal in IBS, I thought they still had to be within the confines of the barrel taper rules. The one I saw this past weekend looked like the one in your picture which to me doesn't fit that description. Jim, could you possibly post the rules about tuners here or let me know where I can read them again. Obviously I have some misconceptions. Again not that strange for me! Randy J.
Gene Beggs
Active member
GLP,
You bring up a very important issue; point of impact change after tuner adjustment. This is the primary reason I abandoned the cylindrical, beyond-the-muzzle configuration.
It is impossible to build and operate such a tuner and have it remain perfectly balanced and concentric with the bore. As you rotate and retighten such a device it wobbles, maybe only a small amount but this affects POI, sometimes, dramatically.
My tuner always remains entirely behind the muzzle, it is perfectly symetrical, balanced and rotates precisely around the centerline of the bore. It does not change point of impact after an adjustment.
This issue is but one of the many reasons the Beggs tuner is superior to anything currently available and as an added bonus, it is also the least expensive.
Later
Gene Beggs
Randy,
Wayne Shaw drew up an agenda item this past year to allow the use of tuners that mimics the NBRSA rule. It was passed by an overwhelming majority of shooters that attended the meeting. Tuners are here to stay. The item should be in the minutes of the winter meeting on the IBS website.
Hal
jackie schmidt
New member
Randy
Go back to the Home Page and hit the IBS logo, go to meeting minutes, 2008. Page 5, GA3.
For all general purposes, the IBS and NBRSA tuner rules are now identicle, and quite liberal........jack
Hal, I type slower than you......jackie
Go back to the Home Page and hit the IBS logo, go to meeting minutes, 2008. Page 5, GA3.
For all general purposes, the IBS and NBRSA tuner rules are now identicle, and quite liberal........jack
Hal, I type slower than you......jackie
I don't know if you saw my tuner at the Super Shoot Gene, but it is a 6oz beyond the muzzle tuner. It is all stainless and puts 5.7oz of it's weight past the muzzle. The inside diameter is far smaller than most designs at about .600", for use with .308 bullets as well as .243's. It is perfectly concentric with a very tight thread fit to the barrel. It does not wobble. The locking nut I use is brass and utilizes a looser thread fit. When I change the setting, which is rare with the 30BR, I see no appreciable POI shift, maybe a half a bullet. I can live with half a bullet in score or group. I do change the setting more often when the tuner is attached to a 6ppc barrel, but still not much POI shift. I do have barrels that shift POI more when changing tuner settings, but those barrels tend to sit in the shop when BIG match time comes calling. Life's too short to shoot mediocre barrels...I've had a fair amount of success with this tuner design, both in group and score shooting, and I don't see myself being without a tuner in the future.
Hal
I used a Palma-contoured barrel on one of my 1,000 yard Light Guns. Not quite the same as a straight taper. In the Palma contour, the rifle behaved as Jim remarked -- fussy & inconsistent. It would group small, but let the temp change -- or much of anything, for that mater -- and it opened up. Then we put a tensioning tube on it, and it settled right down.
Jim may not remember, but he's seen this rifle -- I used it for a match during one of his visits to Hawks Ridge. And I'm aware this is a different model; a tensioning tube stiffens, a tuner does not. Still, it seems early to give up on lighter-profile barrels.
FWIW
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Randy
Here is a small portion of the tuner rule passed in January
"5) The tuner is exempt from the barrel diameter restrictions (may be any diameter and length), but the barrel itself must remain within the dimensions as stated in the current rules."
Gene Beggs
Active member
Hal, you have had better luck than I, with cylindrical tuners. You say you secure it with a brass locking nut; does your design require tools to adjust? Does the small bore, beyond the muzzle configuration pose any problems while cleaning?
I know your type tuner works because I have built a number of them, I just find my new design to be far more user friendly, easier and quicker to adjust, lighter weight, and less expensive. Why not let me send you one to try on your 6ppc? If you don't agree it is superior to what you are using just send it back. What do ya' say? genebeggs@cableone.net
Later,
Gene Beggs
Pete Wass
Well-known member
The Great hope
for tuners is that they will make a mediocre barrel shoot acceptably. I believe they can do that. First thought, we must find a design that is adaptable to barrels of varying sizes, (O.D.'s) or tuner makers make them in different I. D. sizes. I truly hate not being able to experiment.
for tuners is that they will make a mediocre barrel shoot acceptably. I believe they can do that. First thought, we must find a design that is adaptable to barrels of varying sizes, (O.D.'s) or tuner makers make them in different I. D. sizes. I truly hate not being able to experiment.
Gene Beggs
Active member
Pete, you bring up a good point. Although my tuner fits all LV and HV contour barrels, there are some, such as your 30BR that pose a problem. We will soon have another batch of collars finished that will accomodate smaller diameter muzzles. Some may suggest that a sleeve type adapter could be used but I don't like the idea for three reasons, one, it adds unnecessary weight, two, it introduces another part into the picture which means greater expense and three, it opens the possibility of imbalance in the installation which leads to shifts in POI as the tuner is adjusted. Bear with me for a little while and I'll soon have what you need.
Later,
Gene Beggs
Jim Borden
New member
Charles
I remember the rifle you were shooting at Hawk's Ridge. I admired the rifles that you and Joel were shooting--experimenters at heart.
I have not given up on the slender barrels--I am going to shorten the one I was playing with and try different style tuners on it.
the way the barrels are shooting that have the tuners on them--the BS about threading the muzzle impacting on the accuracy of the barrel sure has been put to bed for me. No basis for that conclusion is what the shooting data shows.
Jim
I remember the rifle you were shooting at Hawk's Ridge. I admired the rifles that you and Joel were shooting--experimenters at heart.
I have not given up on the slender barrels--I am going to shorten the one I was playing with and try different style tuners on it.
the way the barrels are shooting that have the tuners on them--the BS about threading the muzzle impacting on the accuracy of the barrel sure has been put to bed for me. No basis for that conclusion is what the shooting data shows.
Jim
A
