Ir 50/50 (275)

[tonykharper]

There has been much discussion about using 275 scoring on the IR 50/50 target.

This scoring system gives one point for each X. That means a perfect target, 25 X card, would score 275 points. A 249 24 X target would score 273.

The ruling class in IR 50/50 have rejected the idea for a very long time now.

But and there is always a but, William Casey at Chicken foot is always looking for ways to push the envelope.

He held an IR 50/50 style 275 money match last weekend at his Chickenfoot range.

Turnout was very good and many of the top shooters in the country were in attendance.

When the dust settled the winner was Norm Flynn.

Norm is a fairly new shooter, but he has come on strong.

Norm also placed 3rd in the ARA tournament held the next day.

Norm is up there with the big boys giving them hell on a regular basis. You go Norm we need some new names at the top of the list!

Here is the score sheet.



TKH (4628)

 

[penn63]

Tony, I don't know why there is so much opposition to the 275 scoring method for IR 50/50. To have a 250-zero X beat a 249- 24X just doesn't make sense. What is the more accurate target???????

 

[doclu60]

Push the envelope?

There has been much discussion about using 275 scoring on the IR 50/50 target.

This scoring system gives one point for each X. That means a perfect target, 25 X card, would score 275 points. A 249 24 X target would score 273.

The ruling class in IR 50/50 have rejected the idea for a very long time now.

But and there is always a but, William Casey at Chicken foot is always looking for ways to push the envelope.

He held an IR 50/50 style 275 money match last weekend at his Chickenfoot range.

Turnout was very good and many of the top shooters in the country were in attendance.

When the dust settled the winner was Norm Flynn.

Norm is a fairly new shooter, but he has come on strong.

Norm also placed 3rd in the ARA tournament held the next day.

Norm is up there with the big boys giving them hell on a regular basis. You go Norm we need some new names at the top of the list!

Here is the score sheet.

View attachment 25346

TKH (4628)

Mr. Harper,
Not so sure about your comment about Slick 'pushing the envelope' so to speak. Slick promotes the game of sanctioned RFBR very well, IMO. It was a money match, not sanctioned, and we did the same thing in December 2021 at the Indoor Nationals as well. Nationals before that, we used the BR-50 target for the money match, a target that has no sanctioning body. Slick and his range offer a 'complete package' for those that travel to shoot. We had 44 shooters on Saturday for nothing more than a ARA Club tournament. That is REAL close to the attendance of a triple points Area tournament.

Really have no idea what your point is. If it's about going to 275 scoring for IR becoming a part of the sanctioning body, well, I would not support that at all. BTW: I do support both major sanctioning bodies and do so by participating as much as possible. I have also committed 'formally' (ARA) and informally (IR50/50) to help two clubs in my area stay staffed and still actively hosting both sanctioning bodies. One of those clubs, last year, I personally texted you to see if you would join us for a significant tournament weekend, as you had in the past and got no response. Hum?

While I truly respect your accomplishments in the game, I often wonder what your motivation is in 'stirring the pot', considering such comments about IR scoring and Slicks approach to providing a better experience for the shooters that participate at his club. Shooters that travel there do so because he offers a good 'product' to justify the cost of travel.

Scott A. Albury

 

[tim]

Tony wants to fundamentally change the way IR 50/50 is scored just as Bill does. Now Tony’s motivation may be in earnest, WLM’s is to lay claim to personal credit.
So much for history, tradition, etc.
Kudos Scott, you may be new(ish) but correct. Casey, to his credit, adds a twist to what was obviously a nice shoot which was in point of fact, primarily an ARA event so kind of “ a captive audience”.

 

[tim]

Tony, I don't know why there is so much opposition to the 275 scoring method for IR 50/50. To have a 250-zero X beat a 249- 24X just doesn't make sense. What is the more accurate target???????

And those two scores have happened exactly…..never.

 

[linekin]

And those two scores have happened exactly…..never.

I've heard of somebody shooting a 250-0x once. That's gotta be extremely hard to do! Probably equally as hard a 250-25x.
I think I'll try this summer

Keith

 

[penn63]

And those two scores have happened exactly…..never.

I exaggerated the numbers to prove a point. Maybe those two scores have never happened, but they could. See post #6. Nothing is impossible. Would you care to give me your opinion on what target you consider the most accurate of the two?

 

[doclu60]

Tony wants to fundamentally change the way IR 50/50 is scored just as Bill does. Now Tony’s motivation may be in earnest, WLM’s is to lay claim to personal credit.
So much for history, tradition, etc.
Kudos Scott, you may be new(ish) but correct. Casey, to his credit, adds a twist to what was obviously a nice shoot which was in point of fact, primarily an ARA event so kind of “ a captive audience”.

Yes Tim, 'new(ish)', but a student of the game. Also deeply enamored to what I feel is the true core of what IR is all about, 3-gun/Sporter. Also the scoring system.

Captive audience?.....I can see merit in that comment, but Friday was a practice day and finishing it with a money match adds to the cost verses reward of traveling. People in our game travel for two different reasons. Shooting targets and socializing with friends they see in person only at matches. Both very worthy endeavors IMO.

The event as far as points and ranking goes was strictly an ARA event. I suck at indoor shoots, but went because I like the folks that shoot there and two of my friends wanted to do an indoor shoot together before outdoor started. I shoot a lot more ARA than IR, but only because ARA is much more accessible to me from a travel standpoint, more events closer. I could see myself shooting more IR if more ranges were in my area of travel hosted IR, but that is not the case.

I knew about the TKH pot stirring and the other connection before my first post, but have grown tired of the conflict it poses to sanctioned RFBR, especially IR, and finally decided to voice an opinion, although somewhat back sided. I also know Slick personally and felt, though 'diplomatically' posted, was somewhat of a slam against him. I am sure a certain individual will disagree with my opinion. Same guy that freely gives me his phone number, but doesn't give me the respect of returning a text.

I appreciate your reply to my post Tim.

Regards.......Scott

 

[doclu60]

I exaggerated the numbers to prove a point. Maybe those two scores have never happened, but they could. See post #6. Nothing is impossible. Would you care to give me your opinion on what target you consider the most accurate of the two?

If you don't like the scoring, don't shoot it. The fact of the matter is that if you miss so far out you get a nine, the 250 is still valid. In most, if not all of the IR matches I have shot, the 250 low X count doesn't really come into play that often. It's about keeping all 25 shots within a certain boundary.......repeat, all of them, not just 24 of them. In the money match at Chickenfoot last Friday, scored 275, I had a 500 /?X count after the first two cards and was third from last with 25 shooters. If you need the cushion of one lost shot out of the boundary of 25 ten's only to win on X's, then shoot ARA.

Is your argument of 249/19X more accurate than 250/10X valid, yes. But the fact of the matter is if you can't shoot a 250, then you made a mistake of a perfect score on points. Got to get the points first before X's matter. Not really sure what people don't understand about that, but that is how this particular game is played. If you can't do that, then don't get butt hurt over it, get better or quit shooting it. That is how this game is played.

Scott

 

[PedroS]

Apologise to enter the discussion, being from the other side of the pond...

Just one point to consider. People tend to believe a 249 24x is more accurate than a 250 0x. In fact it isn't.
Why?
Easy task. Pull the available software and join all impacts in just one group and see which one is bigger. I'll give you a clue... to score a 250 you have to touch the 10 line every time, so the group can't be bigger than the 10 circle diameter (x) plus the bullet calibre X+Y+Y. To score a 249, whatever the x count, you have one bullet outside that 10 circle, namely the 9 ring diameter (w) diameter, so x+y+y+w.

I'm not making any point against or, for one or other type of scoring, just showing perception is not always true, maths is...

 

[Rimfireshooter]

There has been much discussion about using 275 scoring on the IR 50/50 target.

This scoring system gives one point for each X. That means a perfect target, 25 X card, would score 275 points. A 249 24 X target would score 273.

The ruling class in IR 50/50 have rejected the idea for a very long time now.

But and there is always a but, William Casey at Chicken foot is always looking for ways to push the envelope.

He held an IR 50/50 style 275 money match last weekend at his Chickenfoot range.

Turnout was very good and many of the top shooters in the country were in attendance.

When the dust settled the winner was Norm Flynn.

Norm is a fairly new shooter, but he has come on strong.

Norm also placed 3rd in the ARA tournament held the next day.

Norm is up there with the big boys giving them hell on a regular basis. You go Norm we need some new names at the top of the list!

Here is the score sheet.

View attachment 25346

TKH (4628)

Tony, you are correct about Norm. He's progressed very well and is now shooting at the top of the indoor game. It's good to see him, and anyone else for that matter do so well. It gives the new guys hope and possibilities, if we do our part and practice, practice, practice.

Go Norm Go!

Larry

 

[drknite]

Norm is the match director at one of the clubs I shoot at. Norm has worked very hard at becoming a better shooter. He is using a rifle built for him by Tony Harper. Congratulations to him for his vast improvement and to Tony for building a competitive rifle. Proves hard work pays off.

 

[tonykharper]

Mr. Harper,
Not so sure about your comment about Slick 'pushing the envelope' so to speak. Slick promotes the game of sanctioned RFBR very well, IMO. It was a money match, not sanctioned, and we did the same thing in December 2021 at the Indoor Nationals as well. Nationals before that, we used the BR-50 target for the money match, a target that has no sanctioning body. Slick and his range offer a 'complete package' for those that travel to shoot. We had 44 shooters on Saturday for nothing more than a ARA Club tournament. That is REAL close to the attendance of a triple points Area tournament.

Really have no idea what your point is. If it's about going to 275 scoring for IR becoming a part of the sanctioning body, well, I would not support that at all. BTW: I do support both major sanctioning bodies and do so by participating as much as possible. I have also committed 'formally' (ARA) and informally (IR50/50) to help two clubs in my area stay staffed and still actively hosting both sanctioning bodies. One of those clubs, last year, I personally texted you to see if you would join us for a significant tournament weekend, as you had in the past and got no response. Hum?

While I truly respect your accomplishments in the game, I often wonder what your motivation is in 'stirring the pot', considering such comments about IR scoring and Slicks approach to providing a better experience for the shooters that participate at his club. Shooters that travel there do so because he offers a good 'product' to justify the cost of travel.

Scott A. Albury

Have re-read my post and now realize I did a terrible job of trying to offer recognition and congratulations to Norm Flynn for his outstanding performance last weekend.

I'm sure Norm will go on the bigger and better wins in the future, he has worked hard to get to where he is today and all that work will continue bring the success he deserves.

Norm I'm sorry this thread has gotten so far off topic.

Scott,

I've tried to figure out what were the words or phrases I used that triggered your response.

I'm guessing here so much of what I'm about to say may be wrong, if so, realize you weren't very clear about what was so upsetting.

First phrase "ruling class in IR 50/50". The ruling class I am familiar with hasn't changed in the last year and I'm sure their opinions haven't.

I fully realize 275 scoring isn't going to happen in IR 50/50 anytime soon. I beat that horse last year and clearly didn't change any opinions.

"But and there is always a but". No that was not a back handed way of calling anyone a butt. It was simply a poor choice of words to say "there is always a different view" or always a different way to look at something.

I've used it before but I think it is now time to stop using it.

All references to William Casey. (Slick). I've known Slick a long time. We have had many back-and-forth banners but never with malice. I think Slick knows the respect I have for all he has done for RFBR.

Before he built his outstanding outdoor range or his outstanding indoor range, Slick would sponsor big matches and tournaments held at many locations. He did this out of his own pocket.

He promoted those matches like no other can. His ability to use the written word to paint pictures with many colors is rarely matched. He certainly doesn't need anyone to fight his battles he is more than capable.

Recently I started using 4 numbers after my initials on my post. Those numbers by chance happened to be Slicks ARA numbers. I'm sure when he saw my posts he wondered why in the world I would use his numbers.

Slick quickly learned why I used those numbers and they had nothing to do with him. When I first heard they were his numbers I didn't believe it, too much of a coincidence. As weird as it may be they are his numbers.

I don't know if you are aware of this or not, I'm just guessing this could have rubbed you wrong. If so, you now know the story.

We all know our match directors are the backbone of our sport and they all deserve much more credit than they get. I also respect and appreciate all you've done to keep our sport going.

You mentioned the travelers. they are the most dedicated shooters we have.

While many can't do what they do, they respect these travelers because they know these shooters are on the leading edge of the sport.

You also said you don't know my motivation. That is for sure.

I've stated this many times and I don't know how to say it more clearly.

I have no axe to grind. I don't care if you use SAP or a PAS actions. I don't care what barrels you use. I don't care how you chamber your barrels, I don't care what flags you use. I do care that you participate in RFBR.

All I wish to do at this stage of my life is promote the sport directly or indirectly.

RFBR has been very kind to me, provided many thrills and kept my mind occupied with many challenges.

Yes, I do stir the pot. I believe that helps push the sport forward. Anything that remains stagnant eventually dies.

Now getting down to what I think really triggered you. It must have been you felt slighted when I didn't returning your call.

I apologize for that.

Until I read your post I didn't know it happened. I don't recall receiving anything from you that I didn't answer, but it is possible. I may have just flat forgot.

If so, it was my mistake not my intent.

If you would like to discuss why I like the idea of 275 scoring we can do that on another thread. It is clear you don't like it, but I haven't heard your reasons why.

Before we start that conversation let me assure you I have a deep interest in maintaining the history and tradition of IR 50/50. Anything to do with 275 scoring would have to be additive as was 10 shot.

As much as I enjoy 10 shot, it hasn't made much of an impact.

I don't know that 275 would bring in more shooters but was glad to see Slick offering it as a money match. One thing for sure if it never gets tried it will never do anything.

Just to be clear, this thread was to congratulate Norm Flynn on his outstanding weekend.

It is disappointing that so many chose to disregard Norm's accomplishment and use it to attack me.

I'm a big boy, and I can handle it, but Norm doesn't deserve it. You guys owe him an apology.

TKH (4628)

 

[doclu60]

I guess I'm an idiot in your eyes Mr. Harper. You name the thread opener "Ir 50/50 (275)" and firstly bring up the subject you couldn't get support for last year. Then bring up a non-sanctioned money match scored in a unconventional way and throw Bill's name on it. Then finally bring up Norm's very good performance over the weekend last.

Makes me wonder how I foolishly didn't know the thread was only about congrats to Norm? Also ironic, he just happened to do it with a rifle you built.....hum?

Your reply certainly comes across as 'crawfishing', but that does not surprise me. And BTW, I sincerely congratulated Norm with a pat on the back and a firm handshake personally after the match. I have no doubt my actions were appreciated by him. Owe him an apology?......perhaps in the opinion from someone who views things from a pedestal, but not me. My feet are planted firmly on the ground.

I'll let the rest continue this conversation. I have voiced my opinion, be it one others agree with or not. Kind of like your opinions.

Scott

 

[tim]

Folks….how about two points to consider.
First, in the entirety of score scooting, IBS, NBRSA, prone, palma, high power, ISSF, and probably countless, countless others, both RF and CF the one common fact is 10’s, then X’s and, fundamentally, it is how IR 50/50 was developed and in all of those disciplines why it seems to have worked well until we get to the thinking representing a solution in search of a problem. Where exactly is “all of the discussion” other than here on occasion and over @ WLM world where a single old man drones on and asks and answers 95% of the same posts until the end of time.

Seems to Ivan was coming with an entirely new venue representing much of this scoring approach. From everything so far, it seemed to be DOA. Struck me as a pretty good indicator of that “ wide spread interest” some profess to exist.
Reminds me of the old saying, “ you know if we had some eggs, we could have ham and eggs……if we had some ham”…..

 

[Kookie]

Congratulations to Norm for winning the match.

Also congratulations to James Garrett for shooting a perfect 275 (250-25x) target!

An unsanctioned $ match using something different for scoring just for fun shouldn’t cause a stir. Hate to see any harsh words or hard feelings by anyone over this.

 

[J.B. Books]

My Two Cents !!!

Tony,

I appreciate your recognition of my Rimfire 275 win and 3rd place finish at Chickenfoot but I’m disappointed that the thread took the turn it did. I know you are pleased with how I’ve progressed and have shot the rifle you built that I now own and compete with.

I also appreciate your defense of my “accomplishment”. I’m capable of defending myself but really don’t feel I need a defense in this case. The results stand for themselves and, to be honest, I was surprised to finish as well as I did in both these matches. My opinion is old school - “even a blind squirrel can find acorns in the dark” or “sometimes the magic works”. RFBR is a cruel sport where you can shoot great one day and end up in the cellar the next. I just happened to be in alignment with the stars last weekend.

I owe so many folks a debt of gratitude for how I’ve been accepted into the RFBR community and how many experienced competitors have gone out of their way to help me get started. Their contributions have enabled me to progress but I’m still (and probably will always) be paying my dues and making my bones in this sport.

What was incredibly gratifying, after the win on Friday night several of the guys I see as true champions went out of their way to offer their congratulations. I shot on the same relay as Scott on Saturday and had a chance to talk with him as we stumbled on our walks down range to hang targets. Scott was very complimentary and was accurate in saying that he “sincerely congratulated Norm with a pat on the back and a firm handshake personally after the match. I have no doubt my actions were appreciated by him.”

I try to keep a low profile on these forums and, although I appreciate the recognition I’m definitely not seeking it.

RFBR is a fickle mistress and I work hard to maintain my focus on my shooting ... preferring to set my own expectations and goals. If, from time to time I exceed these expectations and end up towards the top of the leaderboard it’s just icing on the cake. I hope to remain humble and to always be grateful when I shoot well enough to place towards the top.

Thanks again, TKH for recognizing my efforts and thanks to my mentors, the Killough’s for running ARA, the match directors for giving us a place to compete and the manufacturers of these incredible high tech tools we use to pursue our sport.

J.B. Books ... aka Norm Flynn

 

[jimsplce]

I don't think one can actually say which is better, but it is different. The 249 24X would probably average as a smaller group than 250 0X, hypothetically. It could be 24 shot in precisely one hole with 1 shot just missing the 10 ring, while the other could be 25 shots barely touching the 10 ring. Which is better?

Apologise to enter the discussion, being from the other side of the pond...

Just one point to consider. People tend to believe a 249 24x is more accurate than a 250 0x. In fact it isn't.
Why?
Easy task. Pull the available software and join all impacts in just one group and see which one is bigger. I'll give you a clue... to score a 250 you have to touch the 10 line every time, so the group can't be bigger than the 10 circle diameter (x) plus the bullet calibre X+Y+Y. To score a 249, whatever the x count, you have one bullet outside that 10 circle, namely the 9 ring diameter (w) diameter, so x+y+y+w.

I'm not making any point against or, for one or other type of scoring, just showing perception is not always true, maths is...

 

[PedroS]

I don't think one can actually say which is better, but it is different. The 249 24X would probably average as a smaller group than 250 0X, hypothetically. It could be 24 shot in precisely one hole with 1 shot just missing the 10 ring, while the other could be 25 shots barely touching the 10 ring. Which is better?

Well, let's compare apples to apples, meaning comparing the best possible group size, and not one bad and one good. Taking your exemple being the 249 24x one hole in the center and one hole barely touching the 10, will, again, be worst comparative to the best possible 250 0x group, which will be one hole touching the 10 ring.

Please note that I don't want to take the cup home... just pointing perception is not, generally, the best way to see things.

Either way, to my understanding, the 275 score is not to achieve the smallest possible grouping, but to give more change against bad shots.

That said, I'll take either scoring that's on the rule book. And my ultimate goal is not a single bad shot! Maybe one day...

 

[HuskerP7M8]

Tony,

I appreciate your recognition of my Rimfire 275 win and 3rd place finish at Chickenfoot but I’m disappointed that the thread took the turn it did. I know you are pleased with how I’ve progressed and have shot the rifle you built that I now own and compete with.

I also appreciate your defense of my “accomplishment”. I’m capable of defending myself but really don’t feel I need a defense in this case. The results stand for themselves and, to be honest, I was surprised to finish as well as I did in both these matches. My opinion is old school - “even a blind squirrel can find acorns in the dark” or “sometimes the magic works”. RFBR is a cruel sport where you can shoot great one day and end up in the cellar the next. I just happened to be in alignment with the stars last weekend.

I owe so many folks a debt of gratitude for how I’ve been accepted into the RFBR community and how many experienced competitors have gone out of their way to help me get started. Their contributions have enabled me to progress but I’m still (and probably will always) be paying my dues and making my bones in this sport.

What was incredibly gratifying, after the win on Friday night several of the guys I see as true champions went out of their way to offer their congratulations. I shot on the same relay as Scott on Saturday and had a chance to talk with him as we stumbled on our walks down range to hang targets. Scott was very complimentary and was accurate in saying that he “sincerely congratulated Norm with a pat on the back and a firm handshake personally after the match. I have no doubt my actions were appreciated by him.”

I try to keep a low profile on these forums and, although I appreciate the recognition I’m definitely not seeking it.

RFBR is a fickle mistress and I work hard to maintain my focus on my shooting ... preferring to set my own expectations and goals. If, from time to time I exceed these expectations and end up towards the top of the leaderboard it’s just icing on the cake. I hope to remain humble and to always be grateful when I shoot well enough to place towards the top.

Thanks again, TKH for recognizing my efforts and thanks to my mentors, the Killough’s for running ARA, the match directors for giving us a place to compete and the manufacturers of these incredible high tech tools we use to pursue our sport.

J.B. Books ... aka Norm Flynn

Hi Norm,

I’ve been following your progress since we first met at the Area Championship in Texas last year and I truly appreciated you agreeing to share a bench with me when I asked for a fairly new shooter so I could possibly help them. My only regret is that the wind was so bad I couldn’t even help myself let alone you. LOL

Anyway, a big congrats for how well you’re doing and hope to see you somewhere this summer.

Landy