In your opinion whats killing the group game

Stagnated! (cease developing; become inactive or dull)

GerryM said:
I just want to ask if i'm the only one wondering what,s killing the group game.
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I think it has to be the lack of innovation, (the action or process of innovating). Its been the same thing for so long, without anything new on the horizon. Here is a short version on the dominant modern evolution side; We went from the 219 Donaldson to the 222, 6X47 then to the 22 PPC, then on to the 6 PPC. Except for a few versions left and right of the PPC'S, we have stagnated. On the equipment and component side, the quality is at its optimum, but has not peaked. Perhaps some rule changes in the HV/LV class to allow electronic ignition, caseless ammo, video target acquisition. The F-Class and Long Range Competition has really taken off, as it offers some diversity in the sport. The unlimited/rail guns need to be, well unlimited. Think far out futuristic. What will they look like in 100 years? Bring that technology to the table TODAY, then we will have something to look at! The air guns have really showed improvements on the equipment and accuracy side too. They say, what goes around, comes around. The darling of the past was the 22-250, but I don't think it will beat the pants off anyone today! DAN
 
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The need for moving backers makes it harder to put on matches. I'm on the East coast and wish there were more group matches. Others I compete with feel the same. Conversely, if I travel within a 2 state radius, there is a score event almost every weekend between March and October (IBS).

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
 
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GerryM said:
I just want to ask if i'm the only one wondering what,s killing the group game.
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In my opinion its money.

I haven't shot in 12 yrs since my mentor passed and getting back into the game, I'm shocked at the increase in prices.
 
It simply costs too much for casual attendance. The economy is such that those that were once on the edge cannot afford to attend. It's always been a game where newer folks are hard to get and that hasn't changed. Given the decrease caused by the cost to attend, and the difficulty of gaining new attendees, a decrease in attendance is a given.

Let me add this....there's absolutely no reason to suggest change. None, nada!!
 
Getting beat by the pencil, too many different guns to be completive, score you only need one. Too much work, Young people are not interested in the work involved...... jim
 
I wonder if Target Cameras, like the Bullseye, with it's flashing at the current shot and recording it, will allow elimination of backers. Fortunately at my home club with wooden benches and casual shooters, it is easy to see 5 holes as they are never that close! Only 4, we assume a complete miss.
 
I don't think the group game is dying. Yes, there may be fewer registered matches and fewer shooters than 20 years ago (when prices were lower); however, there's still a nice group of group shooters -- there were 100 at St. Louis last weekend; about 200 at the SS last month; almost 160 at the Catcus a few months ago -- I could give other examples of well-attended matches.

It would be nice if there were more group shoots relatively close by; however, that will probably require some more volunteers to help organize and run matches. Anyone up for that?
 
As a relatively new shooter in the sport that was offered help by many strong competitors I would say it's this that stands in the way of growing group shooters. During the time I've been in the game I've seen a few fall by the wayside because they either couldn't find good mentoring or they wouldn't accept it. We can do something about the former but not the latter. To often when a newcomer shows up at their first event the older established guys treat his arrival as an opportunity to sell off their old instead of helping the newcomer acquire some competitive equipment. I didn't let this happen to me.
 
I ran the score matches in LaGrande OR,for 2 years and the single problem that we had was volunteers for target crew. One member that shot the matches would tell me we would have a kid for target crew, and then the kid would only show half the time. The club 450 members strong, liked the money from the shoots but not one would volunteer to help. my wife would score and enter scores in computer and I would run targets and the line. The other club member that was one of the shooters absolutely refused to do anything to help us. Consequently we hosted the long range score nationals in 2016 which without out of state shooters helping to set up the range, would have been a bigger disaster than it actually turned out to be. Scorer and 1/2 the people that volunteered to help were no shows, the club member that volunteered to build the backers required for the nationals, got into several arguments with shooters that volunteered to help, and he left the range went to town and left everyone else to finish his work! 24 hours before the start of the match, The President of the club and I were pouring a concrete floor in the stat shack that the club had promised would be done every month for 6 consecutive months, needless to say My wife and I had enough at this point!
Now I shoot a couple of matches that are local and really have no desire to shoot any registered matches again. The old adage of 10% of the people do 90% of the work in any club or organization needs to be re-written. 2% of the people do 98% of the work!
 
GerryM said:
I just want to ask if i'm the only one wondering what,s killing the group game.
Click to expand...

I think one of the things killing the group game of Benchrest and possibly the biggest thing is group shooting just too technical for most people. Everybody wants to be a sniper. I've talked to the high power,F T/R.and F class shooters and universally they say they don't want to do all the things necessary to shoot group. Some of the F and F-T/R shooter are old high power shooters...ingrained discipline I suppose.
Newer shooters just DO NOT want to be bothered with a $500 set of wind flags and the time to learn how to use them. Equipment expense is much the same. Custom F class rifle are,if anything,more money than custom SR BR rifles. Steel shooters have a even more relaxed attitude.

As an old radio host used to say....."These are my thoughts,we welcome yours". Dan
 
Group Game

GerryM said:
I just want to ask if i'm the only one wondering what,s killing the group game.
Click to expand...
1.) Lack of new shooters due to
a. Time involve to get gun shooting competitive
b. Expense of competitive gun/equipment
c. Lack of a place where he can shoot group matches locally
d. Expense/time to travel to a match (and loss of time with Family)
2.) Expense to club to put on Matches
a. Plaque expense ( Our club has 3 matches/year (6 Days) our plaque expense is $600.00 +/-)
b. Loss of rifle range for club members (Not a good way to make friends with club members)
c. Target frame & backer purchase & repairs---specific to group shooting--not used for other
shooting venues
3.) Individuals to put on matches
The individuals working the matches will need to be paid unless they also are shooters.
Small shoots will need to be volunteer help or this will be a loss to the club.
Any financial loss to the club will bring a quick cessation to the matches(This is not a loss leader).

THE ABOVE IS NOTHING NEW TO GROUP SHOOTING
BUT SHOOTERS PRIORITIES HAVE CHANGED

I THINK THE BIGGEST LOSS IS DUE TO INCREASED COMPETITION FROM OTHER SHOOTING VENUES.

POSITIVE COMMENTS
--We are constantly improving our game and other shooting venues copy our success.
--Maybe we need to re-visit the 300 yard matches. ie: LV 100, 200, 300 Yard match
--Recognize Ranges/Match Directors in Precision Rifleman articles.
--Feature a shooter in Precision Rifleman answering questions about a topic.
--Institute a Rookie of the year award--Guidelines set up by Board of directors
--We need to tap into Tony Boyers knowledge about shooting and make that information available to
the membership---monthly interview with Tony published in our magazine.
We should not let his knowledge elude the membership. He knows much more than whats in his
book.

CLP
 
C.L. Peterson said:
1.) Lack of new shooters due to
a. Time involve to get gun shooting competitive
b. Expense of competitive gun/equipment
c. Lack of a place where he can shoot group matches locally
d. Expense/time to travel to a match (and loss of time with Family)
2.) Expense to club to put on Matches
a. Plaque expense ( Our club has 3 matches/year (6 Days) our plaque expense is $600.00 +/-)
b. Loss of rifle range for club members (Not a good way to make friends with club members)
c. Target frame & backer purchase & repairs---specific to group shooting--not used for other
shooting venues
3.) Individuals to put on matches
The individuals working the matches will need to be paid unless they also are shooters.
Small shoots will need to be volunteer help or this will be a loss to the club.
Any financial loss to the club will bring a quick cessation to the matches(This is not a loss leader).

THE ABOVE IS NOTHING NEW TO GROUP SHOOTING
BUT SHOOTERS PRIORITIES HAVE CHANGED

I THINK THE BIGGEST LOSS IS DUE TO INCREASED COMPETITION FROM OTHER SHOOTING VENUES.

POSITIVE COMMENTS
--We are constantly improving our game and other shooting venues copy our success.
--Maybe we need to re-visit the 300 yard matches. ie: LV 100, 200, 300 Yard match
--Recognize Ranges/Match Directors in Precision Rifleman articles.
--Feature a shooter in Precision Rifleman answering questions about a topic.
--Institute a Rookie of the year award--Guidelines set up by Board of directors
--We need to tap into Tony Boyers knowledge about shooting and make that information available to
the membership---monthly interview with Tony published in our magazine.
We should not let his knowledge elude the membership. He knows much more than whats in his
book.

CLP
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We did the 100-200-300 HV last year at Walker County. Only about one half of the shooters came back Sunday Morning for the 300.

Everything Tony Boyer knows is readily available. The thing that is NOT available is what goes through his head at the Bench.
 
I think we are a victim of our own success. Lets look at the results from St. Louis at the East/West, for instance. Every winning yardage agg was a teen agg. The winning two gun agg was a .2105 shot by Tony Boyer. The top 63 shooters in the two gun were under .3000". This may not be the best match to use for reference as it was a points match to help determine who will be on the US teams for next year as well as the Canadians using it for a points match to determine who will be on their teams as well. It was definitely attended by some of the best shooters in both countries and the aggs show it. Conditions at St. Louis were very good and shooters were on the top of their game, tune wise, but it was still very difficult to get all five shots into the group. It's a very difficult sport. What it is that some shooters love it and stay with it for the long term is a good question and others shoot a few years and quit. Most of the new shooters come into it with the idea that they are going to set the world on fire and it just doesn't happen. If they do have some success, they tend to stay with it and if they don't then they shoot awhile and quit. I think it is a sport for people who strive on the competition first of all with themselves and secondly with the other shooters. In not many sports can a beginning shooter come in and shoot against the best of the best and that in itself makes it a difficult sport for them to win. I don't think it's a matter of it being a stagnate sport as far as cartridge and rifle development, etc. The 6 PPC has been the king of benchrest all the time I've been shooting. The rifles now are not the same as what was shot when I started. There is a lot of difference in a rifle then and a rifle now. How many of you after a match feel that you shot at the top level of what your rifle was capable of doing? I'd bet not many. Maybe we do need a mentoring program for new shooters as it certainly does help to shoot with a friend who has been doing it awhile and who is a better shooter than you are. It's hard to do that when your nearest benchrest shooter is a couple of hundred miles away. It's been argued that we need a classification system like the NRA has. I'm not sure whether thats the way to go or not. Looking back, I liked that you were shooting against National champions when I started even if I didn't know there was a Nationals at the time.

One thing to our detriment is that we have done our best to make it easy on ourselves, maybe too easy. We no longer shoot the Nationals at the end of July like we used to do all the time. It's a lot nicer weather to shoot a week in September or October than it is in July. But, look how many junior shooters we have shooting at a Nationals now compared to what we had when it was in July. Not many now compared to what it was then. Not everyone can shoot a full weekend match, some can only shoot on Saturday or on Sunday. When we went to shooting all the 100 yards on Saturday and all the 200 yards on Sunday, that made it to where those who could only shoot one day couldn't shoot a full agg. They could shoot either both 100's or both 200's. But, not a full agg. That's not good. It made it easy on the target crew and easy on us setting flags, but to the detriment of shooter attendance. The same thing with the present format of the Nationals. Not everyone wants to shoot the UL class. I think it was better when the UL 100 and 200 was on Monday and Tuesday and then the varmint classes started on Wednesday with the HV 100 and 200 being on Friday and Saturday. Sure, it took more flag changes and more work on the target crew, but we used to have people come in and just shoot varmint classes or the HV class if that was all the time that they could be there to shoot. You don't see that anymore. The present format is not user friendly to those who just want to shoot the varmint classes. The IBS Nationals format is a little more shooter friendly with the UL 100 on Monday and the UL 200 on Saturday. I've furnished part of the flag rotation for several of the past Nationals. It doesn't take very long to set five full sets of flags. With two or three people with radios, it can be done very quickly. If we can up the attendance at the Nationals by doing a little more flag setting, I wouldn't be adverse to that. Anything we can do to help attendance is a good thing.

I think the level of difficulty required is the main problem though as to why we aren't attracting new shooters. The young guys are gravitating to the long range steel target matches around where I live and shooting rifles that cost as much or more than what a top of the line benchrest rifle does. Take a look at some of the prices on the rifle scopes that they are using and you'll think your Valdada 36X, NF42X or even March 48X is cheap comparatively. If that steel target goes ding, they have their instant gratification that they don't get in benchrest.

In the Gulf Coast region this year, we have lost the club at Denton because there wasn't anyone to step in and run the matches there. At New Braunfels, the Boy Scouts had been the target crew for as long as I can remember. They received a phone call from the Boy Scout leader a little less than a week before the match that the Boy Scouts were not going to be able to be the target crew as some of the parents objected to their kids being at a rifle range. I received a phone call from Tomball after the Crawfish that they would no longer be hosting group matches at Tomball. The reason being was poor attendance and a heavy aging backer system that needed to be replaced. But, the primary thing that all three of these lack is the help necessary to run the matches and change the targets. The Midland club was fortunate for years to have a man who worked for the range to run the matches and the target crew. Unfortunately, he is no longer there and now everything is done with volunteer labor. It takes more work to put on a group match than it does to put on a score match. More frames to set as well as changing the backer targets that you don't have with VFS targets.

It's easy to see the why's as to going down in attendance at matches. The question that we need to look at is what can we do to reverse that trend. That's my take on it anyway. I think we need to do everything we can to boost attendance even if it's going back to shooting 100/200 yard aggs on the same day or changing the format at the Nationals to make it more shooter friendly even if it makes a little more work on us.
 
Mike, I was lucky to have a mentor, Glenn Newick.

But all he could teach me was the basic fundamentals. I had to take it from there.

I'm trying a new, (for me), combination in my 6PPC. You saw it shoot in HV at Seymour. It's showing a lot of promise. I put a 1-12 twist on my LV this week. I'm heading to the range tomorrow to see how it does.

It's still a 6PPC. Just not the run of the mill 6PPC.
 
jackie schmidt said:
Mike, I was lucky to have a mentor, Glenn Newick.

But all he could teach me was the basic fundamentals. I had to take it from there.

I'm trying a new, (for me), combination in my 6PPC. You saw it shoot in HV at Seymour. It's showing a lot of promise. I put a 1-12 twist on my LV this week. I'm heading to the range tomorrow to see how it does.

It's still a 6PPC. Just not the run of the mill 6PPC.
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Jackie, I hope you can make it to Midland with your combination. I'd bet Midland will be as good a test for it as Seymour was.

Mike
 
Whats killing the Group Game?

Good Post Mike.

In my opinion, Group shooting is not dying. A Sports program, with no operating budget or funding sources, outside membership dues, is doomed to eventually experience financial hardships.

Competitors will come and go, like in any sport. There is an enthusiastic core following of Benchrest group shooters that insures the survival of the Sport/Hobby for many years to come. Volunteers being a part of that group.

A lot of credit should be given to the Rifle Ranges/Clubs and personnel for hosting group shoots. Its a difficult task with limited resources.

Of course, Group Match attendance has seen a gradual decline now for the last decade or so. It happens in many recreational sports, due to a variety of reasons. It is almost impossible to prevent the negative impact attrition has on existing membership, when the average age of that membership is 55.

I don’t pass up an opportunity to introduce a new shooter to the Sport. I think the key to survival of the Sport,any sport, is to recruit new competitors. One at a time. Its a long slow process, but it may be the only direct approach to maintaining status quo.

I won't be able to make the midland Match.:(



Glenn
 
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