IBS long range front bag rule queston

B

Boyd Allen

Active member
This came up in a conversation with a friend when he was telling me about the 600 yard match he attended this weekend at St. Louis. He told me that a fellow who had shot a potential record (not sure what match) was DQed from that record because his front bag mad contact with the sides of the forend for more than one half inch above the bottom of the stock. Frankly, this surprised me, but since he told me that this had been brought up by Bill Shehane, and I know that Bill is no dummy, I decided to look it up in the IBS rules. This is what they say.

"A front sand bag rest shall support the front part of a rifle: a rear sand bag rest shall support the rear
part of a rifle: neither rest can be attached to the bench, the rifle, nor each other; they must be
movable in all directions independently of the other. Any part of the rifle resting there on must
maintain a minimum of one-half inch distance from any part of the retainer or container holding the
sand bag on which the rifle rests. Whenever the rifle makes contact on its sides, there may be a
maximum of sand one-half inch high and a minimum of one-half thick on each side. Sand bags on
front rests must be a minimum of one and one-half inches wide by four inches long and rear rests
sand bags must be a minimum of one and one-half inches wide by three inches long. No device of any
kind can restrict the upward and/or rearward movement of the rifle. Any; sand bag used as a rest that
is not supported by a retainer and that has movement without restraint need not comply with this rule."

From reading the rule, it seems to me that if a bag's sides are more than 1/2" tall, and the sides of the stock do not have a part that sticks out beyond the rest of the side of the stock (that is 1/2" or less tall, coming up from the bottom corner), if the bag is touching the stock on its sides, it is very likely that it is not not legal. It seems that this takes in a lot of stocks and virtually all unmodified bags. Am I reading this correctly?

Again, the only reason that I am asking is for clarification. I am not offering an opinion. I told a friend that I would look into the specifics of this rule. Enlighten me.
 
Boyd

This is the sentence that applies.

Whenever the rifle makes contact on its sides, there may be a
maximum of sand one-half inch high and a minimum of one-half thick on each side.

1/2" maximun contact measured from the horizonal plane of the bottom of the stock up the side of the stock. The bag can be any heigth. It's the contact area that is measured and the bag can't be compressed to restrick the movement of the rifle in any direction . Meaning you can't screw the ears in and clamp down on the rifle.

Dave
 
Seriously!!!...I'm sure that if you pick hard enough at my equipment, you probably can find something "illegal" about it, although EVERYTHING is made for "benchrest" or "1000 yard benchrest". Kind of like selling parts for NASCAR that when installed on your race car would make it "illegal" in NASCAR.

One question......who do I send my trophies back to? The last thing I want to be called is a cheater!!
 
Tod

I have no knowledge of this incident. I have no idea who possibly is involved or any decisions made prior to or following the alleged infraction or lack of prior oversight by the club and referrees at this match or others where this rifle was possibly used.

The rule is there in black and white. Very simple and clear. I don't understand why people get outraged when a match official points out they are in violation of the rules. That's why they are called rules. The level playing field thing. Running fast and loose with the rules in one part of the country will just make it much harder when shooters travel say to the Nationals and are told they're not in compliance. That's when the volume goes up and they have no one to blame but themselves.



Dave
 
Dave Tooley said:
Tod

I have no knowledge of this incident. I have no idea who possibly is involved or any decisions made prior to or following the alleged infraction or lack of prior oversight by the club and referrees at this match or others where this rifle was possibly used.

The rule is there in black and white. Very simple and clear. I don't understand why people get outraged when a match official points out they are in violation of the rules. That's why they are called rules. The level playing field thing. Running fast and loose with the rules in one part of the country will just make it much harder when shooters travel say to the Nationals and are told they're not in compliance. That's when the volume goes up and they have no one to blame but themselves.



Dave
Click to expand...

I have no problem with the rules...you are right..they are all there in (semi) black and (off) white. My issue, I have been shooting the same equipment since I started the sport 5 years ago. Equipment made especialy for BR and LRBR. Now, all of a sudden I may need to go out and try and find new equipment ...maybe...according to Charles' post........new equipment that may or may not break the rules as written in the book. The ONLY way to know for sure is to buy it, fill it with sand, mount it on the the rest...beat the snot out of it to settle the gun into the bags, and measure. Simple....EXPENSIVE, but simple. I bet that if I do that three or four times I might find something legal....cuz by definition....EVERYTHING I have seen on the line since I started would seem to be deemed illegal.

When I started, I asked a lot of shooters, walked the line, and read a lot af articals, to find the best stuff out there. NO ONE was talking rules....That was the big plus on the LR game...lots of innovation and no restrictions on guns other than weight and calibre. Now, all of a sudden...bang. I have no trouble with the rules, but a little heads up would have been nice. If we knew last winter that we may need to do some updates to make ourselves legal, we would have had time. Season is now in full swing...making the changes before my NEXT match is going to be tough.

Is there a list of "IBS APPROVED" gear out there somewhere. I will, 100 % for certian, buy equipment off of that list. I will do whatever it takes, at whatever the cost, to make my equipment legal for IBS 1K. I am not "outraged". I simply want to eliminate ANY POSIBILITY of an EQUIPMENT DQ...I have enough trouble with crosfires DQ's and being blown off target DQ,s. :confused: :) I drive a MINIMUM of 1000 miles on ANY IBS event weekend. The Nats will be a 3500 mile weekend!! I will not be sent home BEFORE I pull the trigger because of my equipment!!

Again....Not mad...not stressed....just confused..(well more confused than normal). I have lots of respect for the "powers that be"...they have a tough job. Trying to make everyone happy is fricken near immpossable...I know that from MUCHO experence from being on various boards of directors or president of them.

Thaks,
Tod
 
The question becomes this - If there are enough folks in violation of a rule does that warrant a rule change? In my experience, the "powers that be" will in every case submit to a rule change rather than enforce a seemingly innocuous rule. "Seemingly" being the key word there.

Competitors create these uncomfortable positions when they turn a blind eye on match day.
 
Tod and Charles

What is not clear about 1/2". I don't care what stock you have, what bag you have. If there is more than 1/2" of contact you're outside the rules. Simple. It's been that way since day one in the IBS. Dick Davis and I made the sides of the MBR stock 1/2" tall so there would not be any questions. What other people do is their business.

Sounds like if there is a problem it is in the enforcement area. There are referrees appointed at every match. Match directors should ask referrees to review equipment on the line but the sole responsibility for enforcement of any and all rules is with the referrees and they should take that responsibility seriously. They are not there to just rule on missing shots and occasionaly weighing of rifles. We are a self policing organization. When people don't read the rules and step out of bounds then sooner or later it will be brought to their attention. I've seen it done at the most inoppurtune times. Usually after a long drive to a national event where there can be no grey area. That would apply to you, me or anyone else. No free pass there. I've seen a gunsmith show up with his LG that was over weight by an ounce and couldn't shoot. An advatage? No. Talk about a lower lip all pouched out all weekend.

All the years I've shot my home club has always given new first time shooters a close inspection and gave them time to get into compliance. If they showed up again out of bounds they got DQ'd or were told they could shoot but wouldn't be an official registered competitor. Also making people happy has nothing to do with it. If you want to see unhappy shoot at a club where a few shooters are across the line and nothing is done about it. That will destroy a club.

Except for a few requirements the rules or lack there of were left open to allow experimentation. The bottom line is everyone is respondsible for their own equipment and how it is used.

Dave
 
I have seen guys crank the tension down on the ears until if you lifted the gun you could lift a 50 lb rest. Obviously more than 1/2" touching.

Remember, "NO device of any kind can restrict the upward and/or rearward movement of the rifle" is also a rule.

Charles, also if I remember right the referees specifically checked for the 1/2" that year. Lot of modifications made to rests and guns before the Nationals and no issues but people have seemed to forget that.

We had rear bags show up at the Nationals with blocks screwed on to the bottom last year also in spite of all the information put out about it ahead of time.
 
Dave Tooley said:
Tod and Charles

I've seen a gunsmith show up with his LG that was over weight by an ounce and couldn't shoot. An advatage? No. Talk about a lower lip all pouched out all weekend.


Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,
Did you mean more than one ounce or was the referee in violation of the IBS rules?

From the IBS rule book.

5)
In Tournament where the dimension factor is involved the Host Club shall provide an accurate scale, a steel rule, and a pair of calipers or micrometer having a maximum capacity in excess of 1.25". In weighing rifles with scope attached an excess of one ounce shall be attributed to scale error.

James
 
Charles E said:
I apparently made enough noise that the Long Range Chairman at that time announced that nobody would be disqualified. It was unclear whether or not it was for that Nationals only.

I'd bet Wilbur could find that exchange.

There is another part of the rule, that no support to the sandbag be closer to the rifle than 1/2 inch. Some people interpreted that to mean that if a piece of metal secures a bag -- like a strip across the leather flats originally used to tie a bag to a rest -- and it is less that 1/2 inch between them and any portion of the stock, the bag was illegal, even if the bag itself was not supported by them.

We've sort of been in a don't ask-don't tell situation for a number of years. I'm surprised Shehane is taking that position.
Click to expand...

This is an example of what I am talking about...the "other" 1/2 inch rule....the 1/2 inch between the gun and the rest....and how it can be said that "SOME PEOPLE INTERPRETED". Is it a rule, or is it an interpetation?

If you want MY interpetation...the 1/2 inch relates to that part of the bag which actually holds the sand. It does not apply to the horozontal flaps on it intended to be used to secure the bag to the rest. How could it? But then you throw in the "some people interpreted" deal!

Someone else might look at the WHOLE rest top...or "container"....I mean the parts without any bag on it , and sugjest that since there is no sand between the gun and the rest, it is not legal...it does not meet the 1/2 inch sand rule. It might be more than 1/2 inch between stock and rest, but there is NO SAND between stock and rest in those areas. Is this illegal?

"Some people interpet" is not a rule. it is a GRAY area. The 1/2 inch on the sides part is fairly strait forward..just hack the sh#t out of my (Shehane) stocks to make sure that there is no more than 1/2 inch contact, or find shorter bags.
 
James

I don't remember exactly what the weight was but it was just marginally over. No argument from the competitor. My point was the rules are the rules and they apply to everyone all the time.

Dave
 
I love it when people can't/won't read the rules. The rule, a clarification of an existing rule, was written by the committee under Lee Fischer as chairman. I believe Jeff Walker and I worked most of this out then it was approved by the committee and went through the rule change process.

"Any part of the rifle resting there on must
maintain a minimum of one-half inch distance from any part of the retainer or container holding the
sand bag on which the rifle rests. Whenever the rifle makes contact on its sides, there may be a
maximum of sand one-half inch high and a minimum of one-half thick on each side."

There it is in black and white at least to me. Any container ( recessed cavity, container made from side plates ) Any retainer as in a plate that makes contact with the bag requires the rifle to have a 1/2" of sand around it. Again anything touching the bag is in play. Screws through the retainer plates don't count but if those plates touch the bag in any way, even the sewn edge of the bag then yes they are in play.



Dave
 
Dave Tooley said:
There it is in black and white at least to me. Any container ( recessed cavity, container made from side plates ) Any retainer as in a plate that makes contact with the bag requires the rifle to have a 1/2" of sand around it. Again anything touching the bag is in play. Screws through the retainer plates don't count but if those plates touch the bag in any way, even the sewn edge of the bag then yes they are in play.



Dave
Click to expand...
Dave, you just gave us an interpetation of a rule. You had to...because the rule is not clear, or in "black and white". You just added a whole bunch of words to a rule to explain it . I see nothing of scrwes in the rule. I don't see "recessed cavity" in the rule. I don't see "side plates" in the rules. These are your words. Don't get me wrong..it seems with this rule that everyone must come up with their own words to explain it.

My gear is coming out this weekend, along with a tape measure. My HG stock (rail actually) is already having the metal work being fixed as we speak. Should be done soon.

You guys who say..."it's right there in black and white". Well maybe to you. Kinda like looking at a legal document...written by lawyers for lawyers.... it's all there in black and white...the problem...you need to be able to speak the language!!! And this rule must be vague enough for it to have been "overlooked " by the IBS for woe these many years.

Lets get it address, updated, changed, or clarified so anyone can read it, everyone can understand it, we all can follow it, and you don't need to add a bunch of words to it to explain it, or rationalize it. I like what you said.... black and white!!

Or we can forget it....again!!:D
 
I hadn't been on here for a while, but got a call this evening from one of the "Midwest" shooters to take a look at this. When he explained what was going on, we both agreed that of all the rule questions brought up over the past couple of years...this one is the clearest. I really cannot believe the is a controversy over a so called interpretation of this rule. It really is right there for everyone to see.

To the best of my knowledge there was no world record that was not recognized due to this rule. I believe what is being referred to is a target that was ALMOST a world record target. When a write up hit the Internet about it, with pictures of the rifle and stock, my phone started to ring. The LR Committee started taking steps to see to it the rule was known to the clubs. As far as I know no one has been DQ'd, but as usual, we encouraged everyone to see to it that steps were taken to see that everyone was within the rules.

These are problems that all the clubs went through in their beginnings. Most stocks have been made either on purpose or just by chance to ensure this rule didn't become a problem.

It really seems to me that a vast number of shooters have not read the rulebook. Or that they only search for an answer that is a problem at the time. I am very used to that. What I am not used to is every time a rule is given, getting responses like these. Sometimes I can see where someone could read a rule in a different way, sometimes I can easily see that someone is trying to read something into a rule to suit their purpose. This one is very clear. It does not need to be updated, changed or clarified in any way. It can't be made any more clear. Has it been enforced ? In the older clubs, yes it absolutely has. In the newer clubs, I bet not...at least not until recently. As far as someone saying that no one would be DQ'd for equipment violations at a nationals...I know nothing about that.

--------Jeff
 
Rules-Rules.....no matter how clear/unclear should be changed....anything that makes a point blank style front rest "illegal" should be changed/modified to alow them .....lots/most competitors have or use this style rest....we should not have to argue about how far a owl ear bag goes up along the side of the gunstock....the rule was meant to keep people from using nylon guiding means ...not to dis alow rests that are as common as "reloads".....our officers and comitte members need to cure this problem....Roger
 
Roger,
It really doesn't matter the IBS board of directors doesn't follow the rule book anyway even when it is very clear.
The 1000 yard Nationals were awarded to White Horse again this year which is a clear violation of Rule VII) 3)

National Events and Special Shoots
a)
A National Championship is held annually at a designated IBS 1000-yard range. The site is rotated among IBS 1000-yard benchrest clubs.

It don't get any clearer than that.

Both Byers, Colorado and Yukon, MO put in for the Nationals but because a couple guys from the East coast came to the annual meeting and cried because they didn't want to drive that far it was taken away form Colorado and given to White Horse.
Which rules in the rulebook do we actually need to follow and which ones are just put in there for filler obviously this one really isn't a rule even though somehow it got printed in the rule book.
As far as I can see the rulebook is totally meaningless.

James Howsden
 
James, we all know what happened there. It has been explained. If you cannot accept the explanation, fell free to continue beating the dead horse.

Tod, WV is a fairly new club, but the combination of a lot of their shooters having shot many matches at the other clubs and shooters from the "older" clubs shooting their matches, has headed off a lot of problems. The major difference is that when things are seen and the rule concerning what was seen is brought forth, the response is usually something along the lines of "oh, we didn't know that". In contrast to what we hear from a few of the shooters of the "newer" clubs. I do have to say that the vast majority of the people who call me are very reasonable and respectable people. A few of the people who post on here make things sound way worse than what they are.
 
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