IBS Benchrest Surveys (LONG)

J

Jeff Stover

Member
The IBS Executive Board has authorized two surveys. The first is for current, or former, benchrest competitors and the second is for NON-benchrest shooters. Both can be found on the following web links.

For benchrest shooters:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7WXV5SP
For NON-benchrest shooters:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/W2W5CMD
Feel free to distribute these links to others.

The primary purpose for the surveys is determine how we can grow benchrest shooting. We realize there are a lot of shooters that were once into the sport but have drifted away. Why? Have they found something else, or are we doing something wrong?

The second group we want to reach are serious shooters that do not consider themselves to be benchresters. How do they view us? Are they interested in learning more? How can we help?

By design, the surveys contains some quite provocative and controversial questions. Some questions seek opinions on caliber neutral scoring in Score and whether the two benchrest organizations should be combined. We even tackle the age-old questions about competitions for factory rifles and whether there should be shooter classificatons.

Results of the survey will be presented-and discussed-at the IBS Annual Meeting on January 15, 2010 in Harrisburg, PA. As we did last year, details of the meeting, and the survey results, will be on our web site within 48 hours.

I have been thinking a lot about benchrest in comparison to the other shooting disciplines. In doing so, it is nearly impossible to avoid buzz words, such as "elite", "ultimate" and "cutting edge". Simply put, benchrest shooting CAN be described as such, because that is what we do. If that turns off some, so be it. The rifles that sit on the rests aimed at IBS or NBRSA targets from 100 to 1000 yards ARE the most accurate on the planet. Note I did not say "some of the most accurate".

Probably the most challenging part of our game is there is NO room for error. A group or aggregate that measures, say .270" is a far cry from a .170". Point out a .10" tick mark on a ruler to the average Joe and tell him that is the distance that represents the difference between great and average. I think the very nature of our discipline appeals to a particular type of individual. We are trying to place each shot in the same hole or on top of a small 'x'. It is hard to dabble in benchrest. It is a bit of an "all or nothing" game. And yes, you are pissing in the wind if you do not have the best equipment.

A decent comparison is to some dirt bike events I did a hundred years ago. I could look reasonably proficient in Hare Scrambles and motor along over small jumps. BUT in Observed Trials a screw up was quite spectacular. You needed to be much more proficient in Trials not to look like a Rube.

Selling our sport can be a little difficult. Some of the uninitated think it is either too complex or too easy (see the comments on this benchrest video on Youtube if you want to lose your lunch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkTsUKoaDlU ).

I don't mind that we are a "niche" sport, but we need to be a critical mass to make sure the normal weekend shoots have healthy numbers. Interestingly, most of the really large shoots, such as both Nationals and the Super Shoot have held their own in recent years. So, maybe the economy does play into the number of shoots that a person attends. There is a question to that effect in the survey.

Recently, I had a call from a fellow that is building a sophisticated range here in the east. He was not a benchrest shooter, but wanted information on what we needed so that he can host registered matches. He directly told me that benchrest was important because that is where all the accuracy improvements were coming from and he felt his range needed to cater to our discipline. Enough said.

The survey takes only a few minutes to fill out. Brick bats and other comments can be directed to me at jstover33@comcast.net or 570-660-6102.

Please pass on the survey link for non-benchrest shooters to those shooters that have not "seen the light".

Jeff Stover
IBS President
 
Update - in 24 hours we have already 257 responses to the survey for benchrest shooters, and 240 on the companion survey for those not shooting benchrest. Thanks to all. If you have not taken the short survey(s) please do so.

On thing I can tell you is that well over 90% of the respondents thinks we should grow our sport. More to come.

I want to thank Paul at www.6mmbr.com for his help in publicizing the surveys. He produces one of the best firearms sites on the web as a labor of love. Please visit it and if you can donate via Paypal - he does have advertising on the site, but it does not cover the costs. (BTW, he did not ask me to solicit!)

jks
 
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Jeff
Great survey!
The shooting of more targets and the single sanctioning body seem like great ideas to me.
The nbrsa is down to 2 or 3 1000 yard ranges at most and the largest club left isn't happy with the good ole boys club.

You should give the remaining clubs a call to show them were you stand and remove any/all nbrsa longrange members of any authority from there positions.One bad weed ruins the whole garden.

On the shortrange side of things let them stay as two seperate entities so that no officials come over and ruin your organization.
Lynn
 
So far 456 have responded to the benchrest shooters' survey and 390 to the survey for those not in our sport...we will have some real interesting things to talk about.

I think the nation's weather has contributed to the response!

For you LR guys a little preview....even guys now in 1000 yard want to shoot more and advocate aggregates rather than shoot offs. For those interested in shooting 1000 yards it is overwhelmingly in favor of multiple targets.
 
Jeff Stover said:
For you LR guys a little preview....even guys now in 1000 yard want to shoot more and advocate aggregates rather than shoot offs. For those interested in shooting 1000 yards it is overwhelmingly in favor of multiple targets.
Click to expand...

Yes. Before taking any action, you need to speak to the people who put on the matches.

For example, in the Halcyon days of Hawks Ridge, we use to get 70+ LGs and 50+ HGs. We'd start when the fog lifted, and finish around 4:00pm. That's with the shootoff system. How would you do multiple targets?

Well, gas and travel and time have ended that, now the NC club runs about 30-35 shooters. But we run 2 matches in a day, so that's still 60-70 guns. Moreover, range time at Camp Butner is limited. Looks to me if we don't keep the shootoff system, 1,000 yard Benchrest in North Carolina is finished.

Or, if we completely abandon the old scoring system, we could shoot more benches at one time than the traditional 10. But more benches means more target pullers. We could run things pretty fast if we shot all 30 shooters at once and no one had pit duty.

So we have paid pullers -- At over $50 a day per puller . . . guess what match fees would have to be.

I don't know the situation of other clubs, I'm sure there are issues. If we are going to keep the 10-match aggregate for each club, now an integral part of the scoring system, range availability is going to have to be considered.

Unlike the many people who came to 1KBR from varmint hunting, I came from point-blank BR. I was use to aggregates, and 2-day matches. And clubs that put on *at best* 2 registered matches a year. And traveling all over Carolina, from Wilmington to Charlotte; to Tennessee, to Georgia, and sometimes Alabama.

The win-or-go-home part of 1K BR was not appealing at first. But I understood the logistics, and the 10-match agg was a part of the sport. In time, I came to like the shootoff system. I'll allow I'd prefer an Olympic format, where more than one person advances from each relay, so there are "semifinals" as well as a final. But even that would have to fit into time available, and that's iffy.

To all those who want to sling more rounds down range, I'd say "Reprogram your thinking. You can also try shooting better."
 
If I were some folks on the board, I'd just copy and paste what Charles said and say, "That again". But then, there's more to it than that.

I can say this from experience at the largest 1K club in the world. Folks there have said the exact same thing Jeff is saying was overwhelmingly evident in the poll, that people want to shoot more. HOWEVER, when push came to shove, and they were offered more shooting, they didn't do it.

Why? Well, I think a big reason was that those people had already been programmed into preparing 110% and then shooting really good targets. If you have too many rounds to prepare, you can't put 110% in to them cause life is too short. I for one have no interest in shooting more, never did, never will. I'd prefer to have the targets I do shoot look better.

I didn't have time for another discipline. Don't have time for another set of ammo to prep. I had to take a week off to prepare ammo for the World Open or IBS Nationals as it was. Who has time for that every week? I know I don't. Neither did the folks who said they wanted to shoot lots more. In fact, some of the people who advocated that the most NEVER FIRED A SHOT in 600 yard matches. (and I was in on the running of those matches so I'd have noticed).

Yea... they want to shoot more alright. Let's triple the cost of components, cut the accurate life of our barrels by 66%, and shoot 3 target aggs every day. Oh, and shoot with ammo that wasn't prepared well so all those targets are bigger'n hell. Thanks, but no thanks.

To me, shooting was never fun, it was work. I did the work so I could compete and win. I had fun when I was done winning. After the first couple years, the trigger pulling was no longer as captivating as it once was. By that time, I enjoyed seeing someone else shoot more than I enjoyed shooting.

Of course, I shot at Williamsport, so that's not really noteworthy benchrest cause they don't belong to the "Two" long range shooting "Organizations". Along those lines, did anyone ever consider that what Benchrest might need is a little less "organization"? Did anyone ever pick up on the fact that the biggest "Club" there is, doesn't pay money to another "Organization"? (and doesn't ask for any from anyone else either).

Hmmm, now that's food for thought.
 
Charles and 4Mesh
Wouldn't more targets be just like shooting at a Nationals? As to your 10 match aggregates I never understood why you guys called it a 10 Match Agg instead of a 10 Target Agg.
Waterboy
 
More targets would attract more shooter's. I have shot 1,000yd nationals just because they shot more than one target for an agg. I don't shoot not one regular match all year. The way i look at it is, you won your relay and beat everyone on the line. Your a lucky man. Now produce the same results on 1 or 2 additional targets at a later part of the day. Bench and relay selection has alot to do with it on some ranges. Some clubs say that they have 60-70 shooters and can't run more than 1 target. Well, when the 2 target agg was first brought up by a Va1000 club member, we tested that format and it worked well with plenty time to spare. You have to have a line boss that is going to push the line, the next shooter should be waiting right behind the bench when the last shot fired and as equipment being removed by one shooter, the other is putting his on. Family reunion time can be eithier before or after the match. I have seen the line boss call the relay to the line, 3-4 benchest empty all the way to the sightin period. Then those shooters come running and yelling wait we have to setup. The whole time they were up on the hill giving family time with other shooters. It can be done. Vote it in and try it for a year and see what happens. 7 - 10 hour drive for 5 shots for a new shooter does'nt look to appealing, 600yd does with 4 targets and 20 shots for score.
 
The rules already allow for the option of shooting a aggregate within the current system. A club can already shoot aggregates if it can make it work. Fine with me. But if you're going to eliminate win and advance, that will kill the clubs who can only get five range dates and have 30+ competitors. Or, do the math and show me I'm wrong. And not with some silly 2 target agg. Think it through. In point-blank, with it's 5-target agg per gun, you actually fire 20 targets for the big prize, for the win. It doesn't happen often, but you can have a bad target out of 20 an still be in contention. We don't have an overall winner in regular 1K BR.

What I'm really asking is before the IBS does anything, check with the match directors, and have the match directors do the math. So many minutes per relay. So many minutes in between. So many minutes to change the pit crew.

* * *

As to the two-target agg.

Well, when the 2 target agg was first brought up by a Va1000 club member, we tested that format and it worked well with plenty time to spare.
Click to expand...

Just go and look at a match report to see how even the relay results are. When everybody on one relay shoots at least a 12+ inch target, you figure they're all just bad? Even the past National Champions? One bad relay, go home.

There is more luck in 2 or 3 target aggs than in win to advance -- with win and advance, then at least everybody you're shooting against had similar conditions. Yeah, some ranges have better/worse benches. You going to have bench rotation with a two or three target agg?

But as Phil says, all this has been hashed about on BR Central before.
 
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What I am failing to understand is how preparing enough ammo for two relays and (possibly) two shootoffs differs from preparing enough ammo for a 4 target agg? 4 class shootoffs consume a certain amount of time and typically consist of few shooters and several obervers. This time could be used with more people at benches. Not saying every match should be 4 targets, maybe 3 is a good number?

The cost of components is nil compared to the cost of traveling to matches. Phil, we all don't live within spitting distance of their club. I'd much rather have the hours of time I spend driving to matches at the reloading bench or developing loads, some simply don't have the option. I know you've spent several hunderd hours volunteering with scoring, so maybe that is a curse instead of a blessing. Without an option, we invest the time to drive and shooting more makes the proposition more attractive.

FWIW, the 2008 WO was the best match I ever attended in terms of how well it was run but I am not commuting there to shoot with the club every other week. I can go to White Horse or Harry Jones and shoot at least 4 targets in a day (maybe 8) and drive less.

As for the accuracy and precision piece, I don't think anyone invests the money we do and the time we do to finish 2nd.
 
I don't shoot with the IBS but I plan on giving it a try very soon.Is the single target rule simply because the ranges don't have enough benches/space?
From the outside looking in it looks like your the best shooter out of 10 and not 85 if that many attend a match.If the two best shooting guns are both on the same relay one of them doesn't advance?
Waterboy
 
Lynn,
Yes, as a general statement, you'd be pretty close in saying ranges set their format by what is possible with the venue. PAMountainBoy above for example, must have never attended a World Open cause there simply is no more time by statute of the township. Anyone who has ever been to a World Open will tell you there is no possible way to do it any faster. Someone who thinks there's 1/2 the time wasted (allowing another set of relays) is simply being absurd. Running over for time risks having the neighbors sick the township on the club and possibly shut down the shooting in a worst case scenario. So, not causing a rift is not something to be taken lightly. There is an agreement, and the club will damn well stick to their end of it. Just as you'd expect to do if you had a similar agreement out there. Oh wait, you do have don't you? You can't shoot at just any ole time of day, didn't you say before? Maybe I'm thinking of elsewhere.

Yes, there are two shooters to advance. One for group, the other for score. And two chances to win. Either way, at PA, you already cashed out if you won the relay. You get $17 back just for that. Then of course a shootoff win (1/2/3) pays significantly more. So 6 people in the shootoffs will make more money.

As for your last statement Lynn, yes, at PA, if you get beat, you're not moving on. Same with other clubs using a win/advance format.

Those interested in seeing if folks want to shoot more, should hold a few "Fun Shoots" after the regular matches and see how many shooters attend. I bet its not as many as you might think. Matter of fact, I know it's not.
 
Lynn,
I am not sure what you mean by "the single target rule". At Byers, CO we shoot IBS and shoot a 3 target agg. for each relay, winners of the agg. in each relay advance to the shootoff. Relay winners shoot 4 targets. Shooters who don't win a relay shoot 3 LG and 3 HG targets at each match. Because of the additional time we only shoot one match per day, unlike the clubs who shoot a single target.
We are basically shooting the same format now as we did when the range was NBRSA affiliated.

James
 
Lynn,
Under any circumstance, you "do" shoot within restrictions that the range allows. I know of no place that doesn't have some restriction that affects how matches can be run. They may be out there, but I've never heard of any. I'm pretty sure folks would be surprised to know what some of the restrictions have been/are.

Jeff, I missed your post somehow...

I'll tell you what my driving situation was here. Yes, my home address is a "Williamsport" address. But fact is, I'm about as far as you can get from the PA range and still be considered "Williamsport". Actually, a property 2 parcels from mine is no longer "Williamsport", so that would give you an idea.

I never had a camper at the range. I commuted every day for each match. When I looked at what it would cost to go to VA for a 10 Match Agg season, I figured out that with me currently driving two directions Sat and Sunday, and doing that 10 matches a year. Those miles would be no more driving than if I went to the double matches at Quantico VA for 5 weekends a year. (a 4.5-5 Hr drive one way). So, as you can see, living "close" isn't always a blessing either. Not that I'm complaining cause I know lots of folks are not as fortunate in that respect as I am. But, the costs add up for everyone. Being closer pretty much just means you spend more time in the vehicle going back and forth.

As for what is the difference between 4 targets one way or 4 targets the other, that wasn't my point. My point was, I would not want to see "More" targets. I think if they were to try a 3 target agg as a regular match at PA, they'd find attendance drop off very quickly. I might be misjudging the people there by saying that, but I seriously doubt it. I know there were plenty of times I looked at the wailing wall and saw I was not in the shootoff, and breathed a sigh of relief.

Someone should ask here for shooters from Williamsport to chime in and tell us how many people win a relay there, PAY for someone else to pull their targets in the shootoff (so as not to be dq'd), and leave without shooting... It's not the money, it's not the cost of ammo, it's not that they have some aversion to shooting the shootoffs or the travel cause they're already sitting here. It's the TIME.

At least at PA, there's no rule that says you "Can't" shoot more if you want to. Go shoot a 10 shot practice group of 2.5" at 1K there and trust me, folks will shake your hand and congratulate you on BRC. The club will even give you a plaque. There's nothing that says someone who wants to shoot isn't allowed to. Other than at the WO that is and that's only cause the range is closed for dinner and social activity on those Saturday nights of WO weekends. If somebody wants more, knock yerself out.
 
Chisolm
I was referring to the clubs that only shoot one target.I see alot of them and figured there must be some kind of restriction causing it.Out here we can shoot 25 shooters under a covered shooting line and if we start at 8:05 AM we could have 100 shooters done by lunch.We shoot 3 lightgun targets then swap to the heavyguns and shoot 3 more targets.while the next shooters are bringing gear to the line the pits swap out.If you don't want to do pit duty it is up to you to get someone else to do it.My father is 76 so he hires a puller at each match.
Believe me when I tell you I would like for our club to go IBS or out on our own.There is way too much funny stuff going on right now for me to shoot there anymore under the current regime.
Waterboy
 
IBS surveys

Lnn & who Ever

4 Mesh is right after or matchs you can shoot all you want, test loads have a fun match for money what ever your little heart desires. We have trier fun shoots and 600 yard after a match. But then the other problem comes up and its the BIGGEST OF ALL. Getting people to help. Everyone wants to shoot but no one wants to help. That is your problem not shooting more.

Joe Salt
 
I believe that to shoot a 4 target ag. some clubs would have to set up more benches therefore have more room to do so. Some ranges already have that room so they might want to consider doing so. I shoot score, group, 600 & 1000 yd. but have done less 1000 yd lately because of all the sitting around for a little shooting. Even if you win all your relays you still don't get in as much shootin as most score and group shoots and yet to shoot the 1000 yd matches costs me 4 times as much with 3 times the equipment. Whats' wrong with this picture?
 
trouble said:
Even if you win all your relays you still don't get in as much shootin as most score and group shoots and yet to shoot the 1000 yd matches costs me 4 times as much with 3 times the equipment. Whats' wrong with this picture?
Click to expand...

Most of the 1,000 yard clubs near you -- Virginia, West Virginia (both of them) and North Carolina shoot two matches per day. 4 targets minimum, 8 targets total if you win all your relays.

They would not be able to do that shooting a 4-target agg. North Carolina would have trouble getting 10 match dates at Butner. Probably Virgina would also have trouble getting 10 different mach dates, in that they have to borrow a range, either from West Virgina or Quantico. I'm less sure about the WV ranges.

I'd say what's wrong with the picture is your desire to "shoot more." If that's what drives you competitive juices, go for it. Shoot those venues and don't shoot 1,000 yards.
 
You are right Charles, driving long distances to shoot a few times one day doesn't get my juices flowing.
 
trouble said:
I believe that to shoot a 4 target ag. some clubs would have to set up more benches therefore have more room to do so. Some ranges already have that room so they might want to consider doing so.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting that each match become a 4 target agg? If so, as Charles explained with the ranges that would not be able to get more dates, how would they shoot that much, benches available or not? Quantico has 50 benches available to shoot on, but, cannot do that many pit changes, nor can they hire that many pit pullers. At the one WV range, they don't have enough benches to pull off anything close to that. At PA, even with much reduced attendance, there's still often over 100 shooters just in one class. You think they can get 400+ targets shot and scored in one day? I guess that pretty much rules out double matches!


I shoot score, group, 600 & 1000 yd. but have done less 1000 yd lately because of all the sitting around for a little shooting. Even if you win all your relays you still don't get in as much shootin as most score and group shoots and yet to shoot the 1000 yd matches costs me 4 times as much with 3 times the equipment. Whats' wrong with this picture?
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As an owner of equipment to shoot all the above disciplines, may I ask what additional equipment you need to shoot 1K vs the other disciplines mentioned above? For that matter, just show that it is any more money at all. Actions are actions, barrels pretty much all cost the same, triggers, scopes, bags, rests, etc. More ammo if anythnig actually costs more than less ammo. So, if you shoot more, how can it possibly cost less? 3-4x less?

If somehow it indeed costs more, fine. But, lets just say 3-4x is an exaggeration.

If you shoot a group or score match with no pits, yes, I'll allow you will get to the bench more often. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying that more. If you shoot 600 yard, again, I know of nowhere using pits so that alone makes a match go much quicker, and then shooting 2 targets back to back is double shooting within essentially the same time. I would concede those points, but I certainly would not call it less expensive.

To each their own. The folks offering the poll are just happy to have people shooting "something". They don't much care which it is.
 
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