Help with reloading gear setup...

P

Paul_in_KC

Guest
All,

I am just getting started in precision rifle shooting and would like some help with setting up my reloading gear.

I have a Dillon 550B that I use to reload thousands of rounds for Cowboy Action - and I thought I'd use it to load for my new .308 Win. (Remington 700 SPS - no modifications to chamber or barrel). However, after reading more about loading for accuracy I'm sure I won't want to use a regular Dillon powder drop - as I know it won't be consistent enough.

I'm thinking RCBS Chargemaster Combo to drop powder.

It seems like Redding is a good choice for dies (short of custom stuff - and my rifle is pure factory). I have the "Competition Bushing 3 die set" in mind. I don't think I would ever want/need a better set of dies.

How does one determine what size bushing(s) to use? Measuring fired brass? Measuring the chamber? and adding ???.

Can (or should) I use the Redding dies on my Dillon 550 - or would it be better to get a Redding Big Boss II? It seems like the single stage would be more consistent since the shell holder doesn't have to move.

What about priming tools and case prep tools and gages?

Planning to use CCI Benchrest primers - and Sierra Match King bullets (at least to start). Any suggestions on "best" rifle powders? I'd like something that is as consistent as possible over varying ambient temperatures.

I know that's a lot to ask about. Thanks for your help.
-Paul
 
Reloading supplies

Paul_In_KC:

Below is a list of tools and suppliers I use. However, from your question it sounds like you are
just beginning. If you are not familiar with the tools / steps, it would be helpful to find someone who is reloading for PRECISION SHOOTING now. Watch them go through the process. That way you can become familiar with the tools and steps involved. I am sure there are quicker and simpler ways
to do this, Also sure there are longer and better ways to do it too. Hopefully some folks will chime in with their ideas. This is just a general outline.

The steps for NEW BRASS (below) ... done after determining the over all length of
the loaded cartridge (THIS IS CRITICAL). If you do not know how to determine the overall length of the cartridge, stop and get help. It is the first and one of the most important steps in the process.
(I hope I have included all the steps):
1. Get your brass lined up and fire form all the brass you think you will need (10, 50, 100, ??).
2. Remove the primers.
3. Turn the necks (outside) and inside (if needed). (Use a published guide for dimensions to
fit your caliber and chamber)
4. Trim cases to length (use a look up guide for min. & max. length)
5. Debur the case necks.
6. Ream out the primer pockets to insure uniform primer depth seating.
7. Use an internal flash hole reamer to smooth out the inside flash holes.
8. Use hand dies and press to size the necks
9. Use a hand primer seater for inserting the primers at uniform depths (most folks feel that
if the primer is just below the case bottom by the depth of a piece of paper, that is the correct
depth. Uniform primer seating is important).
10. Use an excellent powder drop unit for powder loads.
11. Use a hand press and dies to seat the bullet.

Tools I use for the tasks:
WILSON: 1.) Inside and outside neck case reamer 2.) Bullet Seater die. 3.) Neck die 4.) Bullet
holder (to hold bullet in case length trimmer and neck reaming listed below).
RCBS: 1.) Deburring tool 2.) Dial caliber for case measurements 3.) Digital Scale
K&M: 1.) Primer Deluxe primer seater (for both small and large primers) 2.) Primer pocket
reamers (one each of small and large primers) ... with a holder which is common for
both small and large primers 3.) Internal flash hole reamer (make sure you get the
right size to fit inside your necks).
LEE: Premium Auto Primer Shell holder ... get a chart to see what size you need for each of
cartridge(s) you plan to reload.
FOSTER: 1.) Hand case length lathe 2.) Hand case neck trimmer lathe
A good HAND PRESS
A good POWDER DROP UNIT (I use Redding, but many other brands are as good or better)

After the brass is initially prepared (listed above), the reloading process of your prepared brass takes a lot less time than the initial case preparation.
1. Use a hand press to neck size and to knock out the old primer
2. Check overall case length. If you have to trim, do so and debur the neck.
3. Clean out the primer pocket.
4. Load primers with hand primer loader
5. Load powder with powder drop unit, and check the weights occasionally to insure
the powder drops are consistent and accurate.
6. Seat the bullet.

At this time you can go out and determine the optimal powder load for you gun. Go out, shoot well, and have a great time than the intial case preparation.

Many fellows could easily expand, modify, or correct this list, but I hope it gives you and idea of the steps
and typical tools used by many precision benchrest shooters. Good luck, Doug Miller
 
Paul_In_KC:
In my response I was pointing you toward Benchrest Standards.
You asked several questions which I did not respond to, because they are almost unique to each rifle and cartridge, as well as to your objective , which sounds like it would be "the most bang for the buck". If that assumption is wrong, let me know where you would like to end up with the gun in terms of accuracy.

Primers: Ask around. I use Federal, but other folks like other brands. Some like CCI, some other brands. The primer will impact the optimal powder load, so once you work up the cartridges, it is wise to stay with the same components for the near future.
Powder: That really depends upon your cartridge, and I have no recommendations for a Win .308. Your local gun store may know, or one of the many vendors who advertise here should be able to point you to the most widely used powders for your cartridge. There really is no BEST POWDER, but you should be able to find the "best" powder for your cartridge, coupled with the primer, and bullets of choice. For example, I use Hodgdon H380 in .22-250 and Hodgdon H322 in 6 PPC. Are they the best? Not sure. But they work for me. Ask a few suppliers who advertise here for their suggestions.
Bullets: Again, ask one of the suppliers who advertise here. Get a couple of different kinds (in small quantities) to start your testing. Bullet shape and weight will vary depending upon the distances you plan to shoot. Make sure the bullets you get will accomodate your required overall length.
Tools & Dies: Use what you have to get started, making a minimal investment to prepare the cartridges "well". Eventually, if you wish to get into competitive shooting, you will need good hand tools and dies for each and every step. Presses used for hunting loads, in my opinion, will not provide the best of reloaded cartridges for benchrest, but they may serve your intial needs without investing a fortune to get up and running.
Hope you enjoy the process and start shooting more and more accurately. Best wishes, Doug Miller

All that said, you are starting out with a hunting rifle, and there will be limits to it's accuracy. So, I would use as much of what I had on hand and work up the best loads possible with the least extra cost out of pocket.
 
Thanks for your insight and info, Doug. Your "read" is correct - with regard to best bang for buck. Having said that, I prefer to buy things once - rather than buy something that I will want to replace.
 
Paul_in_KC:


I think it boils down to: "What is the mission statement?"

Option A: Make the Rem. .308 shoot as well as possible without spending a fortune, but get some good reloading tools to do the job well.
OR
Option B: Starting buying some pieces: like a new trigger?, new barrel? float the barrel? new stock? ,etc. etc.
OR
Option C: Get into BR, one inch at a time. (The best reloading tools and then a fine BR gun).

I started with OPTION A using a Rem 700 heavy bbl in .22-250 and spent a year going through all the steps which started with the gun in factory mode, and factory loads shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards to a final improvement of 1/4" groups at 100 yards and sub 1" groups at 200 yards, just by working on cartridge prep., overall length adjustment, bullets, and powder loads. Still a factory gun, but far more 'accurate' than when it came out of the box. The process of moving to that level of accuracy was as fun as it gets.

Then I got hooked on OPTION C: BR equipment and BR standards.

However, by the time I finished OPTION A, I had all the little necessary tools. Kept the Rock Chucker and dies for it in a closet (but could have sold them). All the other items I acquired one at time from various sources. The tools will last a life time.

The point is, it can be done incrementally. Just set out a 'mission statesmen,' however if you decide to move on, it will be easy, but (as you know) those BR guns and barrels are not cheap. However, more often than not you can find one that is very well made through friends or the classifieds on the board. A proven gun is just that PROVEN. A gun built to order ... well, maybe it will be perfect and maybe not.

Frankly, I had so much fun with OPTION A, I now wonder why I ever went to OPTION C. I can only advise it is a rewarding process to work up a gun, and watch the improvements with time. Best wishes and hope you enjoy it and have great succes, Doug Miller
 
Doug,

You are right again. I am pretty much in the "Option A" group - but I did purchase an H.S. Precision Pro series stock to address the only major weakness of the original 700 SPS (at least in the context of my expectations - not BR). So my barrel is floating - and the stock seems to be pretty good. I replaced the stock before firing the first round. I am happy with it so far. I have only fired Hornady Match ammo (not counting barrel break-in) 168 grain HPBT - and probably average .75 - 1.0" groups at 100 yards. I'd like to leave the rifle as is for a while and just work on optimizing the loading (and learning to read the wind).
-Thanks a bunch. Paul
 
Paul,

Sounds to me like you off to a great start, and know how to get there. Here are just a few added thoughts based upon your last note.

I do not know if this is still true, but I found with my Rem. 700 that the there was a very 'deep throat' to the lands. I say that because I am not sure if this is still true, because I bought the Rem. 700 new in about 1995. But a gunsmith pointed the deep throat out to me, and I had to find special bullets to make cartridges that fit the overall length to just touch the lands. The jump for factory ammo was pushing 1/4", and I have no idea how you group with that situation. Once I got that under contol the gun really shot. As I said, it went from 1 1/2" groups to sub 1/4" groups at 100 yards.

Before shooting the .22-250, I did have the barrel floated and the trigger worked down to about 2 lbs. The stock is still factory orginal. Scope is a rock solid, crystal clear Leupold 6.5 to 20, Vari-X III, E.F.R., currently sighted in at 250 yards. A good scope is critical (but that is a whole 'nother subject).

For what is worth, I think neck turning, case length trimming, primer reaming, and precise primer seating are necessary to get the desired results. Others might have other thoughts, but those items seem important from my experience.

The recommended powder you might be able to get from a local gunsmith or your local gun store. Or you could check the Center Fire Board and put a post on there asking what BR shooters prefer for powder in .308. They may also have some ideas about the suggested shape and weight of bullets. BTW: I went with Berger bullets for all my Center Fire guns, and I also bought into the Moly coating idea. I order the bullets pre-coated, because it is a mess to apply. The premise behind Moly coated bullets was less wear and tear on the barrel (less friction). Not sure if that is the conventional wisdom today or not, but I have checked my barrels and am happy with how will they have withstood the test of time and rounds.

If you have trouble with the overall cartridge length, a local gunsmith should be able to measure it for you and maybe set the bullet seater to that length for starters. Your gun should improve dramatically when you get the brass prepared and a close approximation of the overall length is established. I found once it was "measured", you could fine tune the bullet depth while on the bench. Just fire 3 shot groups, and reduce the length ... watch for groups to open up or come together ... reduce a bit more until they start to open up .. then in small increments increase the length until the groups come to the smallest size. Once they start to open up again, back it off to the optimal depth. Once you have found the sweet spot, lock your bullet seater and keep a record of the over all lenght your gun likes. After that you can play with the powder loads to get the best groups at the distance you expect to shoot most frequently. Sure know recommened ranges of powder loads by caliber are available in many reference books.

I would also recommend that you stay with the same primers, powder, and bullets, after the final tuning is done. Each is a variable, and if you mix and try to match, it will drive you crazy. Fun to experiment, but keep good records to see what works best for you, and then hone your skills.

I found wind flags are important, even with centerfire guns. No flags? Posts with light ribbons work pretty well and cost almost nothing to build. The more flags the better. One near the bench and at least four more down range at 100 yards.

Enjoy the process, and best wishes. Bet you are in the sub 1/4" group size before long!! Doug Miller
 
Paul, first if you're shooting a factory barrel with a factory chamber spending time turning case necks will only shorten case life because the neck in the chamber will likely be oversize anyway. Select brass for uniform neck thickness, use the best which should be ±0.0005" measured around the case necks. I've tried neck turning cases for factory chambers and found it to be a waste of time. It's easier to buy Lapua cases (which still need necks measured for uniformity in my experience) than turning the necks. Turning is the method of choice for uniforming the thickness of case necks, reaming only makes the hole a uniform size and does nothing about centering it in relation to exterior of the neck which is what is desired. Turning and reaming is sort of like cinching your belt up as tight as you can get it and throwing on a pair of suspenders to keep your pants up.

Get one of the devices that can be used to measure the length from the head of the case to the datum line on the case shoulder so that you can adjust your FL sizing die to bump the shoulders of your fired cases back ~0.002" which will allow easy chambering, long case life, and best accuracy. Short of a custom die a Redding bushing FL die will work best in my experience. To determine proper bushing size you need to measure the OD of fired cases, know the thickness of your necks (using a tubing micrometer), and size the necks so that the necks are reduced enough so that the ID of the necks is ~0.002" smaller than the OD of the bullets, or ~0.306" in your case. A little math will solve the problem of the proper bushing size. Buying one the calculated size, and one a thou smaller and maybe one a thou larger so that you can experiment some with neck tension might be a good idea.

Either a Redding competition or Forster micrometer seating die will serve you well. Nothing against hand dies, but the Redding and Forster seating dies work as well and are easier to adjust and less fiddly IMHO.

While the Dillon press is good for cranking out high volumes of ammunition, for precision shooting where precision ammunition is more important that volume a good single stage press allows more control. I use an old RCBS Rockchucker and a Partner press. The Partner may not be heavy enough for FL sizing .308 cases, and the Rockchucker may be overkill (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). Any good single stage press will serve you well, buy the one that strikes your fancy. If you're not going to pack it around weight doesn't matter. Leverage is always helpful.

If you use Win or RP brass the flash holes and primer pockets will need to be uniformed for best results or at least peace of mind.

A hand primer seater is best for letting you know that your primers are all seated the same to the best of your ability to feel. Instead of deciding what primer you're going to use, I'd suggest trying several brands to see if there will be a difference on the target. Sometimes there is and sometimes not with a factory rifle.

Seating depth is important for accuracy, and something like the Stoney Point/Hornady seating depth tool, and a tool that allows you to measure to the same place on the bullet's ogive which is the ONLY way to measure seating depth. Overall length only matters if the ammunition has to fit a magazine.

Matchkings will work well to start with.

For powders RL-15, 4895, and Varget should get you started.
 
She who must be obeyed beckoned me for dinner, but I'm back.

A few things have occurred to me in the 5 hrs I've had to think. The Chargemaster is a good way to throw charges. At least as accurate as throwing short with a measure and trickling up to the charge you want, and a whole lot faster.

Although the .308 is capable of very good accuracy, and a lot of people will tell you that a .308 doesn't have much recoil at all, if you're shooting off a bench and trying for small groups the recoil will get to you after awhile. There are those who would tell you that I'm some kind of sissy, and maybe I am, but shooting little groups with a .308 is much more difficult than it is with a lighter recoiling rifle. As a pure benchrest caliber the .223 won't cut the mustard, but from a properly turned and loaded factory rifle out to 300 yards they're hard to beat.

I'd recommend getting ahold of a Sinclair International catalog (free), and looking through it if you haven't already. They sell dies, tools, and books, and will at least give you an idea of what is available. The advertisers on BR Central are also good sources of information and loading equipment.
 
Doug and Larry,

Thanks a bunch guys. Your input/experience is greatly appreciated. It has been a lot of fun for me so far and I think it's going to be a lot more fun once I start working on good loads to match the rifle.

-Paul
 
Paul,
I would have to ditto everything Larry said. Good advice and it should not be too expensive if you follow his suggestions. The .308 is a 'man's gun,' and I enjoy shooting .223 as much as any centerfire. I did not mentioned .223, but I have a Rem. 700 in .223 that really has excellent accuracy for a factory gun, and the brass is as easy to work as it gets.
Buying excellent brass (like Laupu) is a wise investment. Just like the factory ammo, you will have to fire form. As Larry pointed out, turning the necks will reduce the life of the brass. I am still a believer in turning the necks (internal reaming is not necessary in your mission). Turning the necks should give you excellent concentric bullet / barrel matching (if the chamber is correctly made), and the shoulder should wed well with the chamber. The .308 is heavy cartridge and working it in a Rockcrucher will be far easier than in hand dies. Cleaning out the inside flash hole is an excellent idea, even with top level brass like Lapua. The cartridges are stamped, and there is always some residual flared brass in the flash hole. Uniform primer seating makes a significant difference for uniform ignition ... cartridge to cartridge. Here's to great success, Doug
 
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