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Tod Soeby

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I had 2 300 wby bbls chambered up last winter. 1 shot very well right from the start. The other tube never shot well with anything I tried. I put my good tube away and am again looking to get my so-so bbl up and running, since deer season is comming up, and I want to find something so as to save on my good tube next year.. I took the best of the best that I found this summer....79 RL 25 / 210VLD, 72 IMR 4350 / 210 VLD, and 71 RL 25/ 24 SMK. I loaded 3 foulers and 2 five shot groups with each. I cleaned between each differant load. I also tried 6 differant loads of RL 25/ 208 A MAX (3 shot groups) after I was done with my initial test.

Everything was at 300 yds. Temp was 33 degrees, calm, overcast, and some snow/sleat. No speed shooting. I didn't have time to set up my chrono.:mad:

The foulers and the first groups with each load were all ok. Not great. About as expected. I waited about 2 min between the first and second groups. In all three loads, plus about half way through the 208 test the second groups opend up wildly. At least tripple the size....quadripple even. I checked the rings and the action screws at the range....all ok. I did not take the scope off yet to check the bases, but I don't think they are loose because the first group in each series was ok.
Good group, bad group, clean, good group bad group, clean, ect.....

Like I said....this tube never lived up to my standards, but this was wild. I have never seen anything like it......anyone have a clue???:confused:

Thanks,
Tod
 
Tod .........

What's the rate of twist in your barrels?
Have you tried lighter weight bullets?

- Innovative
 
Tod normal group size?/

So Tod you are telling us that it went from 1/4 " to 2 " groups at 300 or 1" to 4 inches ??? Was it vertical or flat or a big circle groups
Dave Holland
 
Tod
You may have a barrel that likes to be very clean.Out here we shoot 3 ten shot groups per match and at the end of the year youi can compare all of your first targets to all of your second targetrs to all of your third targets.
My current heavygun always shoots better on the first target.
Waterboy
 
Dave Holland said:
So Tod you are telling us that it went from 1/4 " to 2 " groups at 300 or 1" to 4 inches ??? Was it vertical or flat or a big circle groups
Dave Holland
Click to expand...

test one.... 1st 2", 2nd- 3 1/4

test two..... 1st-1 1/4", 2nd - 3 1/4

test three....1st - 1", 2nd - 3 1/2

I may have overstated the actual growth. It looks like about tripple on two and double on the other. On the 208 AMAX test I tried 6 differant powder charges ...groups 2, 3, and 4 were around 1 1/2 inches (3 shots) groups 5 and 6 had shots go off the paper, so at least 5 inches!!!

lots of vert, but some L & R also.

BBl is a 1-10 twist.

As far as the bbl liking to be clean......First off.....NOBODY IS MORE ANAL ABOUT CLEANING THAN ME.......NOBODY!!!!. Also, I have 569 documented rounds through this tube as of last night. I have shot as many as 30+ rounds with out cleaning.....Usualy two or three foulers and 2 or 3 five shot groups. Never had this happen before.:confused:

I don't even trust it to hunt with. I am tempted to load some up for my "good" bbl and test them/ it.......to see if it is the bbl or the gun/scope/, or......the possability of a guidence system error!!!:eek:


Anyone else with any ideas?????

Thanks,
Tod
 
Lynn said:
Tod
You may have a barrel that likes to be very clean.Out here we shoot 3 ten shot groups per match and at the end of the year youi can compare all of your first targets to all of your second targetrs to all of your third targets.
My current heavygun always shoots better on the first target.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

At a match I clean between every relay and or shootoff. I regularaly clean at the range.
 
Tod ......
Your 1-10 twist is perfect for your bullets. I'll bet you knew that. Get (or borrow) a bore scope, and take a close look just ahead of the chamber, especially the first 2 inches. Examine it before and after cleaning. You may find a reason for getting a buildup of copper or carbon for some reason.

I had one Rem 700 (w/factory bbl) with the exact same symptom you described. The barrel appeared perfect in every way, and the crown was perfect. It almost never shot good groups after the first 5 shots. (I clean my barrels like you do.) Occasionally it would do well, but it was very rare. I finally replaced the barrel, and I used it to practice using different lathe cutting tools. When I cut the barrel in half (near the center), I discovered something I've never seen before. The bore was nowhere near the center of the barrel. Whose barrel are you using? I'd give the manufacturer a call.

- Innovative
 
Tod
If its not the barrel fouling out check the bedding next then start swapping out pieces of the rifle.If you have last years barrel handy put it back on as a quick way of determining if its the barrel.
Waterboy
 
Octopus said:
what is your clean procedure?
Click to expand...

Wet, wet, brush, dry, dry, wet, dry, dry with Butches or Shooters choice. Then let sit with Sweets or Warthog for ten. Dry... If blue ...repeat the whole thing....and again....If I keep getting blue, I use either JB or Isso followed by 2 wet and the brushing and then the sweets.......Untill I get ZERO copper. If I have a few days they soak with Wipe Out.
 
I suspect barrel condition is at least part of the issue. And your cleaning procedure is likely making the barrel condition worst.

I suggest you try cleaning with only JB bore paste and Koil with tight patches.

Based on what I have learned over the years looking at barrels with my bore scope I switch to only the paste and Koil.

As you shoot you develop fire cracking in the throat area. The chemical get in these cracks and are impossible to get out. Add the high temperature flame from the next shot and who knows what you get.

My barrels all seem to do better and go longer since I switch to the bore paste and Koil process.

The use of the strongly ammoniated compounds will cause corrosion in 416 Stainless barrels. When used the ammonlated compounds cause etching so more copper fouling and pitting can be expected.

Go to BORDEN'S ACCURACY and read Jim's barrel cleaning instructions. The process I use is based on Jim's instructions for Break In and Cleaning if using Moly. I use the same procedure for naked bullets as for Moly. My bore scope has show this works.

See: http://www.bordenrifles.com/clean.pdf
 
Your cleaning procedure sounds a bit extreme. It would be interesting to see if you really need to work that hard to clean those barrels. Most custom barrels usually require very little effort to clean, and they don't copper up hardly at all. You can verify this with a borescope, and see if your barrels are as fowled as you think. The blue could be coming from your copper brush.

I had a Kreiger barrel that was chambered far from being concentric with the bore. The borescope showed that throat alignment was terrible, and that rifle coppered up quickly. It took extra time to clean, and that was a miserable shooter. It soon got rechambered, and now it's fine.

- Innovative
 
Octopus said:
I suspect barrel condition is at least part of the issue. And your cleaning procedure is likely making the barrel condition worst.

I suggest you try cleaning with only JB bore paste and Koil with tight patches.

Based on what I have learned over the years looking at barrels with my bore scope I switch to only the paste and Koil.

As you shoot you develop fire cracking in the throat area. The chemical get in these cracks and are impossible to get out. Add the high temperature flame from the next shot and who knows what you get.

My barrels all seem to do better and go longer since I switch to the bore paste and Koil process.

The use of the strongly ammoniated compounds will cause corrosion in 416 Stainless barrels. When used the ammonlated compounds cause etching so more copper fouling and pitting can be expected.

Go to BORDEN'S ACCURACY and read Jim's barrel cleaning instructions. The process I use is based on Jim's instructions for Break In and Cleaning if using Moly. I use the same procedure for naked bullets as for Moly. My bore scope has show this works.

See: http://www.bordenrifles.com/clean.pdf
Click to expand...

My first custom bbl from this mfg had a copper issue. I used JB lots. I sent the bbl back to the MFG. He said NOT to use so much JB. He said it made the bore look like it was chrome lined......to smooth. I didn't know that that was even possible. I don't use it every cleaning....maybe 1/3 of the time.

It just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat!!

Does anyone else clean with the JB/Kroil method? I have no problem trying it with this tube.
 
I use barrels from Shilen, Kriger and Bartein mostly. I have a few Harts and Benchmarks. To me all make exceptional quality barrels. I clean them all the same way with Koil and JB.

Usually by 500 shots the barrels are nicely polished. The Shilen barrel look almost chrome lined. Good barrels are smooth. They break-in with twenty shots or so if I am cleaning between shots.

If a barrel is rough, has pits and etc it coppers up much faster. Pits in the barrel are not so much of a problem if you accept 1 moa and larger for accuracy. For precision shooting good barrel, no pits or tight spots are necessary.

With a Hawkeye bore scope one can look a barrel and usually tell if it has issues and will not shoot. You can not always tell if it will shoot but you can usually tell if it will not shoot as you can see the issues.

You can likely save a lot of time and $ by bore scoping your barrel before working on it more.

If you shoot a lot the best investment you can make is a borescope. I have been shooting center fire since 1954. About 8 years ago I got my borescope. Before I had a borescope I did not know how to clean a barrel. Some will say a picture is worth a thousand words.
 
We looked at my last comp bbl about 1/2 way through the season last year (08). He said that it was the "worst looking piece of sh**" he had ever seen. He couldn't believe I was winning with it. If he didn't know me he would have called me a liar to my face. Huge firecrack issues with carbon/copper in the first 7". It had about 700 rounds through it at that time. I shot the rest of the season with it in both HG & LG. The last two compeditive groups with it at 1K were a 2.7 " LG and a "small" HG. I can't remember, but I think it was 9 shots in 3" with a flyer to open it up to about 7". That was in the shootoff....I think I shot a 6 to get there...... at 1300 + rounds. It still shoots OK, but can throw the ocasional flyer. Great for hunting.

I got rid of a lot of the carbon by.......well it is kind of...."tough" on bbls.....I took the handle off of my cleaning rod. Wrapped a patch around a brush. Smeared it all up with Isso. Stuck the rod in a power drill, and went to work on the first 6 - 8 inches. Took care of the layers of carbon/copper and about 3 brushes:D :D. It actualy cleaned up fairly well after that. That bbl took 4 days to get clean before I did this, so i didn't have much to loose. My current bbl I am working with now won't shoot, so I am going to do something with it. I am not ready to prop up tomatos with it just yet.....besides....I HATE TOMATOS!!! They say some bbls just won't ever shoot. I have lot of time, effort, and $$$$$ in gunsmithing/components in it. I may hack off an inch and have it re- crowned....more $$$$.

I have another new Krieger to work on, + I am the prowd owner of a new (to me) HG!!!!! :D It is a 300WSM. I haven't decided on getting another WSM tube for it, or go with the trusted WBY. Both have thier merits.
 
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I do not shoot much serious competition now days but I do still shoot a lot.

I have not seen the fire cracking near the throat to be a real serious issue. The last inch of the barrel is critical.

When I re-shank a barrel I always bore scope first. The last 25-06 barrel went from 281/2 inch down to 22" due to excessive fire cracking. Fact is it is too short to develop much in the way of velocity. I should have made it a 25 BR barrel.

You are correct in that some barrels just never shoot. Rare but true. I have one premium match 6 PPC LV barrel with 800 rounds that has never shot tight. .3-.4 agg at best! And it bore scopes clean and perfect. Go figure??

I now have four 6.5X284 Barrels. I have been shooting the Kriger on my Savage action. I have never had a barrel so easy to tune. Using N 160, N 170, H 4831 and Etc under the 140 VLD Berger it shoots all loads to the same point of aim, within 3/4" @ 100 yard as long as I fill the case about 85%. With the correct powder charge it shoots the VLD bullets under 1/4 inch at 100 yards. If the other three barrels shoot this good I guess I will be 6.5-284 fan from now on. In the next couple of weeks I will be back to TN where I plan to see how it works at longer ranges.
 
stubern barrels

my cleaning process,(nylon brushs only)brush with boretech benchrest blend 10-15 strokes,1-5 patchs wet with same.check bore,let set 15min if possible,go directly to montana extreme copper cream on brush 10 strokes full lenth of barrel 5strokes first 6-8".from here I go back to benchrest blend on same brush to wash out copper cream 10 strokes,then patch out with 2-4 wet patchs.then I lube with 2-3 patchs with oil to wash out any solvent then dry patch 2 patchs.copper cream is less abrasive than JB's and can be used more often.I also think butchs is not agressive enough.my loading process is all done with latters.I would take your best load and back off 1 gr and load in .1 gr incruments to .5 gr over what you have if safe.then shoot them at 200-300 yards and plot each shot.you should fine 3-4 shots go through the same hole or very close,these will be consecutive powder charges.pick the charge in the middle load 20 rounds of that charge.load them at different lenths in .005 incruments..0010 sort from org load ,.005 sort from org load ,org lenth,.005 longer than org load.Shoot these 4 shot groups at 100yrds pick best group and go with it. lenth test may have to be repeted you should see groups start big go small then get big again.then pick the smallest group.:D:Dgood luck
 
Update

It was the scope!!!! Put my comp bbl on and it shot like krap. Took the gun apart again and checked everything and it still shot like crap. Took it apart AGAIN and re-re-rechecked everything. When I put it back together I installed my 12-42 BR model on instead of the NSX 12-42. Shot great!!:D

The scope left today for NF.

Thanks,
Tod
 
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