Gene Beggs wind tunnel questions.

Vern

Vern

Morethan1waytoskinacat
Gene I have not made it out there yet but there is hope now for this year.
Just traded in the 14 MPG hemi and have a 29 MPG so maybe I can make it without draining the bank, anyway I have some questions about what you may or may not have tried so far.

1. What is the average group/agg for most guns once they have been tuned in the tunnel, that is the tunnel agg?

2.In the tunnel have you seen any advantage of one caliber/case over another?

3. Have you ever tried gathering data in the tunnel for effects of cook off rounds?
That is... firing 3-5 rounds down range and then putting one in the chamber and letting it sit for a range of 1-4 min before sending it down.

I have always wondered how often we blow a group by firing 3-4 down range + sighters and then have a switch and let a round sit waiting on the condition to return only to fire in what we think/know was the right condition and have it go wild and think oh well we waited so long we forgot,missed the condition, or any other variety of things we blame ourself for when it was actually a problem with the cook off.

4. I know you are a great proponent for the air density vs other issues and I was curious what have you found in the tunnel that could help us learn and convince others that it is indeed density and not just temp or just humidity that make the most effect in tune?

Maybe I can remember some of the other questions that have plagued me over the years. later.
Thanks
 
Vern said:
Gene I have not made it out there yet but there is hope now for this year.
Just traded in the 14 MPG hemi and have a 29 MPG so maybe I can make it without draining the bank, anyway I have some questions about what you may or may not have tried so far.

1. What is the average group/agg for most guns once they have been tuned in the tunnel, that is the tunnel agg?

(GB) I don't think I could say there is a "tunnel agg." It all depends on the individual rifle, components and rifle handling.



2.In the tunnel have you seen any advantage of one caliber/case over another?

(GB) The 30BR's stand out as the most consistently accurate of any cartridge.


3. Have you ever tried gathering data in the tunnel for effects of cook off rounds?
That is... firing 3-5 rounds down range and then putting one in the chamber and letting it sit for a range of 1-4 min before sending it down.

(GB) No, can't say I've ever tried that. Most experienced shooters agree it is not good to leave a round cooking in a hot barrel. I'll have to try it and see if such a round chronographs significantly faster.



I have always wondered how often we blow a group by firing 3-4 down range + sighters and then have a switch and let a round sit waiting on the condition to return only to fire in what we think/know was the right condition and have it go wild and think oh well we waited so long we forgot,missed the condition, or any other variety of things we blame ourself for when it was actually a problem with the cook off.

(GB) If I'm shooting in a match and have to stop before finishing my group, I leave the bolt open until I'm ready to continue.



4. I know you are a great proponent for the air density vs other issues and I was curious what have you found in the tunnel that could help us learn and convince others that it is indeed density and not just temp or just humidity that make the most effect in tune?

(GB) "What have I learned in the tunnel?" Honestly? Very little!



Maybe I can remember some of the other questions that have plagued me over the years. later.
Thanks
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(GB) Come on out; maybe we can learn something together. :)



Vern, I'll put my comments in bold preceeded by (GB) after your questions above.

Gene Beggs
 
Cooking a round....

I once believed that it was a big negative to leave a round cook in the chamber. However, the last two screamer groups I shot in competition, had the last record round set in the chamber for around 2-3 minutes. I do believe a person should test a barrel for this. Some do not like a round to set in a hot chamber but most barrels just don't care. I believe it has more to do with the barrel than the round heating up in the chamber, or maybe the atomsphere in the barrel changing has more of an effect than the round heating up.

I recommend everyone to see if it has an effect on a specific barrel. After shooting a good group in practice, just let a round set for a minute or two and then see if it goes in the group.

Hovis
 
HovisKM said:
Cooking a round....

I once believed that it was a big negative to leave a round cook in the chamber. However, the last two screamer groups I shot in competition, had the last record round set in the chamber for around 2-3 minutes. I do believe a person should test a barrel for this. Some do not like a round to set in a hot chamber but most barrels just don't care. I believe it has more to do with the barrel than the round heating up in the chamber, or maybe the atomsphere in the barrel changing has more of an effect than the round heating up.

I recommend everyone to see if it has an effect on a specific barrel. After shooting a good group in practice, just let a round set for a minute or two and then see if it goes in the group.

Hovis
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Interesting Kevin.......... Never thought of it that way............... I know for me, I'm VERY weary about leaving a round in a hot chamber "cooking" while waiting on conditions...
So weary about it, heck, I even work hard to tune/test barrels for some type of bullet jump a barrel likes so I know I can work a loaded round in and out of a chamber without a threat of a stuck bullet in the lands.....! Good for a cease fire without putting even more heat in a chamber dumping the round on a sighter...

Say'n all this..... I'm honestly not sure a shot will FOR SURE jump outta a group when fired outta a hot chamber (cooking in the chamber for a few minutes that is...)

Just ........ A habit of mine....

I believe Genes tunnel Is probably MOST telling of a persons gun handling capabilities..... Then everything else, barrels, bullets, tune..

cale
 
Let's not forget rests and bags. A friend has tested his rimfire bench rifle moving it between several rest/bag setups, including one and two piece, set up on benches that were side by side, each with its own target. How many have tried that? I haven't. There were differences. I think that it would be interesting to have a experimental workshop where shooters met at the range with several different rest/bag setups, and rotated between them, so that they could try out the various combinations one after the other. Some time back, I was shooting one of Ron Hoen's windage tops that has the thinner bag that folds to make the sides, and I decided that it would track better if I put in more sand. It did, but I picked up a bullet hole and a half of vertical, that went away when I removed the sand that I had added. I have also played with fill in the rear bag, and seen differences. I think that this is mostly about how much damping a particular rifle needs, and that this is mostly a function of the stock and bedding. Anyone else?
 
Maybe its just me but the only definitive answers would have to come without having the influence of the wind.
Because we all know that we can miss something in reading or unable to see something invisible.
Just my thought ,,, thus the tunnel
 
Tony Boyer's Practice Secrets

"First, let me say that I don't practice untill the wind is blowing. I may go to the range and fire only a couple of groups....because I can't get get conditions that thelp me learn more about my load in the wind. There is no use wearing out good barrels shooting small groups in calm conditions.

Many people like to shoot early in the morning and late in the afternoon to get the "good conditions". I have always had trouble with these conditions because they tell you very little about your load.

Many do not have the drive to shoot in the adverse conditions, but that will show up on match days".


Tony Boyer

Presicion Shooting Magazine

August 2009
 
Smitty I agree with that for practice sake but we are not talking about practice but actual scientific types of evidence of things that can actually make a difference regardless of the wind. However trying to evaluate some of these things in the wind adds a factor that makes the evaluation of the issue at hand impossible to gain realistic evidence.
While I concede that some things that work in perfect conditions may not matter or work as well in wind and match conditions we will never know the answer until we can examine them in a controlled enviornment and the wind is not controllable.
 
I as well as many others had a tendency to blame bad shots on the "conditions". After shooting indoors for 2 years, I feel a lot of those bad shots have nothing to do with "conditions".
 
Partially and then exactly my point.
WE cant see what is and is not when we have conditions to deal with

BTW will you be shooting with us this year Jerry?????.
 
Jerry, I get castigated quite a bit when I say, "at any given time, the majority of the Rifles at any Registered Match are NOT in a competitive tune". Try as they may, they are shooting for mid pack.

It all starts with the Rifle, (or perhaps the "combination"), that is sitting in the bags.
 
After shooting indoors for just a little, I have a suspicion similar to Mr. Hensler's. I don't have a right to it yet. I know where I'm going to look this year: I'm going to look at bags -- esp those "flat" front bags from Edgewood. When the targets aren't all in the same vertical plane, as in score shooting, I get vertical that is unexpected. A piece of felt over the rear bag (and front) seems to help, as well. But who knows, this may all be smoke.
 
jackie schmidt said:
Jerry, I get castigated quite a bit when I say, "at any given time, the majority of the Rifles at any Registered Match are NOT in a competitive tune". Try as they may, they are shooting for mid pack.

It all starts with the Rifle, (or perhaps the "combination"), that is sitting in the bags.
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Jackie,

Truer words were never spoken; you hit the nail on the head man! :)

I didn't realize this until I started shooting in the tunnel.

In years past when I shot a group outdoors with two bullet holes of horizontal, I would just shrug my shoulders and think, "Oh well, guess I missed a condition change." Now I know how easy it is to have two bullet holes of horizontal built in to your setup before you ever fire a shot. Horizontal dispersion is tuned out with neck tension and bullet seating depth; vertical is tuned out by going up or down on the powder charge to time bullet exit to coincide with muzzle stop. Of course, if you have a tuner you can safety wire your powder measure in one position and forget it.

Once again, first of all, tune horizontal dispersion out with neck tension and seating depth.

Second, tune vertical out by going either up or down .3 tenths at a time on the powder charge, or better still,,,,, install a good tuner for the vertical.

Gene Beggs
 
goodgrouper said:
gene,
why then do most folks i see using tuners still bring their loading gear to the matches? I would think it would be easier just to load 200 rounds at home, and quit lugging all that gear around. Just curious here. The one big draw to the tuner for me would be this ability.
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it is a lot easier! :) I think some folks still do it becuse "It's the way it's done". Why change anything?
 
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There are times when you have to change the charge. I think the tuner should be used primarily to optimise the rifle.
 
goodgrouper said:
Gene,
Why then do most folks I see using tuners still bring their loading gear to the matches? I would think it would be easier just to load 200 rounds at home, and quit lugging all that gear around. Just curious here. The one big draw to the tuner for me would be this ability.
Click to expand...



Preloading at home sounds good but I'm not aware of anyone among the short range group shooters that does it. There are some who carefully weigh powder charges at home and transport them in small vials but still do their loading at the range. I think it is probably due more to the number of cases required than anything. We group shooters are used to taking twenty carefully prepared cases and wearing out a barrel with them. All I can say is try it and see what works best for you.

As for weighing powder charges to the nearest gazillionth of a grain, I gave up on that years ago after proving in the tunnel that it offered no advantage over thrown charges. All of the Culver type powder measures in use today throw charges that are well within practical limits when operated properly.

Gene Beggs
 
Jerry, That is what I do. I optimise the Rifle with the tuner, and then tweek other things if the need arises.

Gene is dead on about that horizonal tune thing. I fight that quite a bit, I can get the verticle out with the tuner, but the darned thing gets so sensitive in the horizonal you can't shoot it under match conditions. How many times have you heard a shooter say, 'well, at least it's in tune', as he stares at a 1.250 straight accross "catepillar" on his target. The truthis, it is no where in tune.
 
"Gene,
Why then do most folks I see using tuners still bring their loading gear to the matches? I would think it would be easier just to load 200 rounds at home, and quit lugging all that gear around. Just curious here. The one big draw to the tuner for me would be this ability."

I use one of Begg's tuners and still bring my stuff along (most of the time). 2 reasons; 1. just in case I have to change something - I can (insurance) 2. It takes a lot of time to make and maintain 200 good cases - heck, it takes a lot of time to make and maintain 30. I use, as Gene said, those little vials and precharge at home.

Thanks Gene for all your work and, more importantly, for sharing the results.

Stanley
 
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Gene,
Maybe my info is wrong or my memory is going but isnt the general variance with the culver measure +/- .2 which overall would for extreme = .4.
Yet as you pointed out it only takes going up or down .3 to bring it in tune.
Now I am confused
 
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