Full length sizing

T

Tod Soeby

New member
I was talking to a fellow shooter and compeditor who has a considerable amount of experience . We were discussing F L sizing methods. He stated that he thaught that he had found the "perfect" setup. He now F L sizes just enough so when he takes the firing pin assy out of his bolt the bolt will close by gravity alone on a chambered case. Makes perfect sense to me, so I figured I would give it a try. Now, first off he has a REM action and I have a BAT. Second.....he shoots a dasher and I have A 300 WBY.....both huge differances. I checked about 30 of my twice fired (very light loads), un-sized brass. With the fireing pin assy out the bolt closes all by itself without sizing the brass. Just push the bolt forward and it will close. I ran three brass through my FL die, each time shortning the die and checking them in the gun. No difference.....all three needed force to close the bolt. Not much, mind you. But noticeably more than before I sized them.


What am I missing?

What am I doing wrong?

Should I even care?

THANKS,
TOD
 
You need a means of checking how much you are actually moving the shoulder back when you "F.L." resize a case. The area right ahead of the belt (on the case) probably swells a bit into the excessive belt headspace that your chamber has, compared to your brass belts. That area may or may not (probably not) get touched by the resizing die.
Also, your boltface may be a bit out of square with the axis of the chamber or you may have one lug flexing a bit to allow the second lug to make contact. These things are usually not an issue with customs like the BAT.
The things that I suggested may not be relavant or it may be, you need to determine what is happening during resizing.
Opinions vary,
 
Good point's, but for the most part I don't think so. First off, you are correct about the BAT action (from what I have seen and read). There aren't any problems with the action 99.9 % of the time. And as far as the boltface being out of axis with the chamber, or one lug making contact before the other,.....I guarantee that if any such problem existed, Spencer would have either fixed if at all possable, or if un-fixable, he would have cut it up in the band saw or turned it into an ash tray. It would have ended up anything but a gun!!:D I vurtualy guarantee that everything is tru and square and all is right with the universe (as far as the gun, anyway). That is how he does things.

As far as knowing exactly how much I am moving the sholder back.....I thought that this was the point of this process. The actual numerical measurment is of no importance......only that they are ALL the same, and ALL just exactly fit in the chamber. Weather the sholder moves back .000003 or .02. As long as they all fit the exact same....and just barely...just to the point where the bolt will close on it's own after they have been run through the die. Again, I have never tried this method, and it could be totaly wrong. I don't know. Thus the question.

Now........ as far as the case bulging just ahead of the bolt causing the "friction"....you are probably spot on. I just don't know how to tell. I just went and tried a few more.....the deeper I seated the case into the die, the harder it is to close the bolt. Again...not that it is "hard". It was hardest when the die and the shell holder touched. So I think you are correct there.

But the question remains....How much is just right....and how can I tell when I am "there"? Or is there a "there"? Is there a magic "numerical" number that I should be shooting for"? Is this process used by anyone else?

My problem is that Just when I thought I "knew it all"......I met YOU GUYS!!!:D
 
Try measuring with a quality pair of calipers or a mic just above the belt on a fired case, then FL resize with the die adjusted so it just touches the shell holder and measure again. What happens to the case just above the belt? Does it swell? My smith ran the reamer into a peice of my barrel so I could measure shoulder bump. Virgin 300 w brass is .510 after fire formed and resizng with a redding comp shell holder #10 as to insure no shoulder bump or a max bump of .001 my above belt measurement is .511 to .5115. Still fits in the bat action w/ no problems.
pm or email if you want to discuss further.
good luck
vinny
 
Todd,

The bolt closing method you are trying only works if you already have the PERFECT FL die for your chamber. This is further complicated by the fact that the weatherby case is a belted Magnum. Short answer is that measuring is the only way to really know what is going on. When you check headspace by closing the bolt you have no idea which of the case dimensions is preventing the bolt from closing and you may very well be severely oversizing some case dimensions to get the bolt to close. I know this becase I tried it and it happened to me. I now have a die that fits my chamber very well and will use the bolt method for a quick check, but I always measure when I want to get things just right.

Russ
 
Tod Soeby said:
I just went and tried a few more.....the deeper I seated the case into the die, the harder it is to close the bolt. Again...not that it is "hard". It was hardest when the die and the shell holder touched. So I think you are correct there.
Click to expand...
Assume that your die is squeezing the walls in .003 or even .005 or more (fat chamber, skinny die). If so, the case gets LONGER until the shoulder area of die and case meet and then it gets pushed back. If your chamber is shorter than your die/shellholder, then the shoulder does not get bumped back enough. Longer brass is harder to chamber.
I hope that makes sense.
 
Hey Russ old friend....It's been a while.


Well, I Do not have a custom die. When I decided to start compeating everyone said I needed to FL size, so I called Spencer for guidence. He said he would gladly make one for me but it would be mucho $$$$, and if I am not mistaken he also said that with a belted magnum I would be just as well off with a redding bushing die. Thats what I ended up doing.


As far as measuring....should I be concerend about the swelling above the belt caused by the bumping, or just about the amount I bump the shoulder? I don't think I have the tools (or the knowlage how) to measure the amount of sholder bump, but have a good assortment of quality measuring tools for everything else except for spinning bullets. Again...is there a magic number? It would seem to me that if all of my unsized brass fits "just right" without FL sizing, I should be neck sizing. But everybody screames NO NO NO.



I will say that I have had fairly good results doing what I was doing, even though I didn't know what I was doing:eek::D. Vey low SD and mid single digit ES. Very little vertical at 1K.

Best wishes....and get your ass up here for a visit!!!:D

Tod
 
Visit my website at www.larrywillis.com and you'll see how to solve this problem. There's also a RELOADING QUESTIONS section that explains why FL dies don't work (by themself) with belted magnum handloads. When you're reloading belted magnum calibers, there's more to consider that headspace - there's also case width.

I make the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die to solve this problem.

- Innovative
 
sizing

I think that to truley use the bolt method to check your cases you should take into consideration if there is a plunger type ejector in the bolt.I personally remove the ejector pin and check with out the firing pin assem. and like to just ever so lightly have to push the bolt handle down.I didn't like the results from a free falling bolt.I was told by some experienced shooters that it will eventully cause case-head seperation.I like to an do FL size every time but just enough for the case to chamber with ease.If you are shooting lite loads you may be able to get by with neck sizing for a while,
 
Jay.......Makes perfect sence.....thank you!!!:)

Mathew.....I do remove everything....just bare bolt.

Larry......This looks like a GREAT idea!!!! One question. Does this die do any sizing on the belt itself. I know that there is swelling just above the belt, but on my 5X fired brass (some of which was loaded way hotter...during load development) there is swelling ON the belt. About .002 more than my cases that have only been fired 2X with mild loads. The brass that has only .001 swelling on the belt chambers a little easier. I have checked the brass over pretty good, including checking them with a bore scope, and they are still in great shape, except they chamber too hard for competition. I am not sure if the swelling on the belt is causing the hard chambering or the swelling ahead of the belt. I would hate to toss this brass if it is fixable.

THANKS FOR THE RESPONCES

TOD
 
Tod,

The belt is definitely not the problem, and no die can affect brass that's located over the web (solid part of the case). The problem 99% of the time is case width just above the belt. I have over 2,400 customers that now use our collet die for this "tight fit" symptom when reloading belted magnum calibers. Bumping the shoulder too hard will make the case bulge much worse. If you can feel your case chamber, you're wearing your bolt lugs.


Matthew,

You'll never experience headspace separation if you measure your shoulder headspace, and keep it to an absolute minimum. Factory loads headspace on the belt. Handloads need to always headspace on the case shoulder.


Jay,

Don't assume .... Russ is right about measuring the headspace to determine exactly where the problem is. You should also measure the case width as Vinny has done.

Vinny,
Keep measuring those expanding cases, and remember that new brass starts out at .507" just above the belt. You must have a very large chamber if your handloads are still chambering. However, they're about to start getting real tight.

- Innovative
 
Tod, It's plumb simple to check your case dimension at the shoulder (IOW, the headspace dim.) with a Stoney Pt. (now Hornady) headspace kit and a digital caliper. I always check the headspace of sized cases vs. fired cases when setting up a FL die in the press; this is especially important since I've got more than one rifle that uses the same dies, and not all of them were chambered by me. Since headspace often varies between chambers by a thou or two, it's important that I get the die set correctly for the rifle I'm loading for. For a bolt rifle, I've found that sizing cases for .001" shorter headspace than a fired case will make it plenty easy to close the bolt without disturbing the rifle or my position, whether I'm shooting off rests or from prone.

Being able to measure the headspace of a belted magnum case allows you to measure one more of the variable dimensions of your fired & sized cases - by knowing the body & belt diameters, and headspace dimension, you've eliminated nearly all the variables that's most likely to cause hard bolt closing.
 
Tod Soeby said:
Well, I Do not have a custom die. When I decided to start compeating everyone said I needed to FL size, so I called Spencer for guidence. He said he would gladly make one for me but it would be mucho $$$$, and if I am not mistaken he also said that with a belted magnum I would be just as well off with a redding bushing die. Thats what I ended up doing.
Click to expand...

I like Redding bushing FL dies and use them. However, I do believe that there is an area that is NOT contacted by the bushing and NOT contacted by the die internals. It is the shoulder/neck juncture. This small area can continue to contact the shoulder/neck juncture in the chamber when the shoulder proper and neck o.d. are not in contact. This give a false "feeling" that you still need to bump the case further. I've seen some reloaders move the shoulder back a lot further than they thought, trying to get the bolt handle to fall by gravity. That has led to head seperations. I have no experience with the double radius shoulder found on Weatherby cases and I hate belts.
Opinions vary,
 
Lynn,
I invented the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die to work MUCH better than any small base die. Small base dies are just a tight fitting FL die. When they're forced down on a case, they work like a bulldozer plowing dirt against a wall. Your brass "piles up" against the belt, and they actually increase the case width on belted cases. Our die is used AFTER using a FL or NK sizing die, and the top of our die is a "case width gauge" that shows you which cases need this extra resizing.

Our die solves both problems that you mentioned. Our website at www.larrywillis.com is devoted to helping shooters make the best handloads possible. Check out the TESTIMONIAL page and the RELOADING QUESTIONS page.

- Innovative
 
I get so tired of folks telling others to set FL dies by feel. It seems like there is a magnetic attraction to this idea.

In an ideal situation where there is a proper relation between the size of the chamber the die and the brass it may work (after a fashion), but often this (proper size matching) is not the case, and when it is not, you need the tools to measure what is happening. One of the tools that is needed is a way to accurately measure from the face of the shoulder to the head. Hornady bought out the Stoney Point tool that is excellent for this. Another tool that is used is a short piece of barrel with the front of the chamber reamed into it.

One more thing, it surely does matter how much you bump the shoulder back, even if they are all the same.

Basically, if you cannot get satisfactory bolt closure with less than .002 shoulder bump (as compared with a tight case) you need a different die, or in the case of belted magnums shot at high pressures a two die sizing process as mentioned above. Understandably, folks don't want to hear this. What they want to hear is that they can adjust their way out of the problem, which, more often than not, is not the case.

If, after you carefully measure fired and sized brass, with the correct tools, your shoulders are not being touched with the die screwed all the way down against the shell holder, you may be able to modify the shell holder so that the die can be screw down farther. I would caution you that if the fit problem is not at the shoulder and you take this approach without proper measurement, you could size your way into some ruined cases, and a separation.

BTW the explanation of how the case can actually get longer at the shoulder when the die is not far enough down to reach it is spot on, as is pretty much all of the other advice that you have received here.

As an aside, there is no SAAMI spec. for the head to shoulder measurement of a belted magnum. Headspace is from the bolt face to the front of the belt portion of the chamber. Because of this brass and ammunition manufacturers are forced to make their cases short enough at the shoulder to work in the shortest possible chamber (not headspace but to the shoulder). I have found that on the belted cases that I have measured, comparing new to once fired brass, shoulders are blown forward about .021", and that with factory chambers and dies, setting dies down to touch the shell holder may bump the shoulder back too far.

For years I have heard hunter/reloaders say that they got just a few firings from their belted cases, and that this was because of the high pressure in these calibers. Of course it was because they were turning their dies down against the shell holder and the repeated excessive bump and blowout was the real culprit. Even back then (pre Stoney Point tool) Wilson made an adjustable gage for the belted magnums. As far as I know they still do, but for my money the Stoney Point is more versatile, covering most calibers, and easier to use.
 
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Larry Willis said:
Tod,

The belt is definitely not the problem, and no die can affect brass that's located over the web (solid part of the case). The problem 99% of the time is case width just above the belt. I have over 2,400 customers that now use our collet die for this "tight fit" symptom when reloading belted magnum calibers. Bumping the shoulder too hard will make the case bulge much worse. If you can feel your case chamber, you're wearing your bolt lugs.


Matthew,

You'll never experience headspace separation if you measure your shoulder headspace, and keep it to an absolute minimum. Factory loads headspace on the belt. Handloads need to always headspace on the case shoulder.


Jay,

Don't assume .... Russ is right about measuring the headspace to determine exactly where the problem is. You should also measure the case width as Vinny has done.

Vinny,
Keep measuring those expanding cases, and remember that new brass starts out at .507" just above the belt. You must have a very large chamber if your handloads are still chambering. However, they're about to start getting real tight.

- Innovative
Click to expand...

Funny you should say that "they're about to start getting real tight". My smith built me a LG two years ago chambered in 308 Baer mag which is an improved version of the 300 weatherby. Over the winter I had him build me a HG in same, well when I tried to place a FL sized case from my LG in my HG the bolt wouldn't close. I couldn't figure it out! Same shoulder bump 2.389 on first time fired to 2.392 on 4x fired. Using a #10 comp. shell holder my shoulders never move from the dimension they come out of the chamber + or - .001. Anyway, just as a side note I anneal after each firing to keep seating forces consistent. I've found if I don't anneal my seating forces go up with each firing. I attribute this to case work hardening so annealing keeps the seating forces consistent at or around 35# give or take 3#. If your wondering, I use the same size neck bushing .332 for a .333 finished round. Getting back to the situation between my LG and HG chambers. Like I said the brass from my LG that is FL re-sized doesnt fit in the HG chamber. I ordered Larry's Collet die when I first started the LG project two winters ago. It sat on my shelf and I would look at it once in a while asking myself "why the hell did I buy that, I'll never use it" so it sat. Until Todd started this thread so this morning, I took what was 5x fired brass in my LG which wouldn't fit in the HG and ran it through the Collet die and the brass fit like socks on a duck. I never thought to measure above the belt!
I will use the collet die now every second firing in my HG chamber to insure the brass doesn't grow too much. Funny thing is in my LG at the 3rd match this year I experienced split heads with brass that had been fired multiple times. I guess the chamber in my LG is sloppier then the chamber in the HG. I'm also figuring that the chamber in my LG is larger then the brass would like to grow causing the brass above the belt to eventually tear away.
Collet works!!!!!!!!
vinny
 
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Boyd Allen ...........

You're exactly correct about shooters that want to "feel" their bolt close on a case. There are so many shooters doing this, and it's a big mistake. Many shooters forget that most rifle cases are also tapered ..... I have seen many shooters "feel" their handloads chamber against the side wall of their chamber. So what do they do then if they haven't measured their cases? They bump the shoulder back even farther and that makes the problem even worse. Eventually (after a few case separations) they discover the case bulge with belted magnums, and then they buy our die.

As you pointed out - shortening your handloads increases your headspace clearance, and that's the only reason for getting a case separation.

Lynn ............

Our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die only performs 2 functions.

1.) It measures your case width to see if it needs "extra" resizing.
2.) It ONLY resizes the pressure ring (just above the belt).

You still need to use your conventional resizing die to resize the neck, and lightly bump the shoulder (no more that .002"). It's very important to read the directions for our die, because it is completely different from any other type of die.

- Innovative
 
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Boyd Allen said:
I have found that on the belted cases that I have measured, comparing new to once fired brass, shoulders are blown forward about .021", and that with factory chambers and dies, setting dies down to touch the shell holder may bump the shoulder back too far.
Click to expand...
Boyd,
I was assisiting a father and son, mounting scopes and sighting in, that were going to Africa for their first hunt (plains game). I convinced them to take matching 300 Win Mag M70 Stainless Classics. Using a "gizzy" that I made when setting up my own 300 Win mag, I measured the amount that their shoulders moved ahead with factory (Nosler) ammo. The M70s wre consistent, both allowed the shoulder to move forward .026. They were not happy about this.
Ignoring the shoulder setback on belted cases does lead to a lot of brass being trashed in only two or three firings. I hate belts.

Jay, Idaho
 
Lynn,
In my post I was referring to the advice that Todd wrote of in his initial post, not the good advice that was given in the posts that followed.
Boyd
 
Jay,

The belt isn't needed on any caliber, except for the 300H&H and the 375H&H. The initial reputation of those calibers was so great that most manufacturers were convinced that no other magnum caliber would sell, unless it also had a belt. That's the only reason there are so many belted calibers today - marketing.

However, there are now quite a few really spectacular belted magnum calibers available today. You just need to adjust your procedure when reloading them. The shoulder does need to be bumped (but very slightly), and your case width needs to be measured. Ignoring your case width will shorten the life of your brass, because sooner or later your handloads just won't chamber. It serves no good purpose to push the shouder back if that's not the problem.

- Innovative
 
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