Flat shooting varment calibre

[Phill Smyth]

Hi all looking for advice on building a very accurate flat shooting varmint rifle for shooting foxes for pelts out to 400 metres max. the majority of shots would be out to 200metres. I used to shoot foxes years ago with customer made Remington 17, but cleaning was always a pain. My question is, would a 204 or another calibre combination be a better option for accuracy, cleaning and quality components.

 

[vicvanb]

After many years of shooting 220 Swifts, I bought a 204 Ruger. To say I'm satisfied with it would be an understatement. It's one of the most accurate factory production rifles I've ever owned. It can compete very well with the Swift out to 350 yards for trajectory and wind drift--and with less recoil. Barrel life is excellent. All-in-all, I think the 204 is great. One possible downside--with the bullets available, you likely will get pelt damage on foxes at ranges of 200 yards or less.

 

[kansasvet]

I also own a .204 and am extremely pleased with it. Very flat shooting.
It is devastating on prarie dogs even at 300 yds. I have not had a chance
to use it on a coyote to check pelt damage.
I shoot 39 gr. Sierra or 40 gr. Hornady with the same load and find the
Hornady more explosive but the Sierra slightly more accurate at the
longer ranges
I don't like to recommend loads because every rifle is different and I
tend to shoot them hot.

 

[Phill Smyth]

Thanks Guys

Thanks Guys, the Remington 17, I shot years ago was 1:10 twist & used 25grn. What twist are the 204's (1:10) and would a faster 1:8 be an advantage. I re-barrelled my Remington 17 Custom with a 1:8 - 223 ACL Imp so it could use 40 grn up to 90grn target projectiles and it is spectacularly accurate, but was not set up for pelts, just to be an offhand Target competition field rifle light or smaller calibre, small game rifle for feral animal control - Crows, Wild cats, goats, fallow deer, wild dogs kangaroo's n Wallabies. When it was a Remington 17, shooting foxes for pelts 90% of the shooting was done at night, in temperatures Plus or Minus Zero, Bloody cold most nights in late fall / autumn through to August. The pelt season is April / May to August depending on those years’ temperatures at the start and end of the seasons. When the dogs start to mate the pelts drop off so that’s it.
Here is a thought in sub zero conditions, I wonder if insulating the barrel with a barrel insulation sleeve , would it keep the barrel a better temperatures and the shot more point of aim. Still keep it floated, but insulated. Do any of the Snow country long range or varment shooter use a barrel warming or insulating system.

In Australia, the Fox skin trade prices dropped in the mid 80's due to the greenies- animal rights fanatics spraying people with paint if they wore natural fur coats.
So what happened? The numbers have got out of control and the foxes have devastated the population of small native animals and birds and farm animals, especially when new born lambs and often calves are dropping. Man they can make a devastating impact on the new born lambs and Ewes. It is sickening to see and if the bloody greenies took note and saw the damage they do to-- It sh-ts me they are so fanatically with no bloody idea. Shooting feral animals is the best and most humane way to control them not poisons them with 1080, like they do, that kills what eats the dead carcases also. AAAArrrrrrrrrrr it infuriates me the stupidity, and the bureaucratic, political correctness of it all of it a

 

[tim]

The 20's are definitely the way to go. I'd have no problem with a 204 however I think the TAC20 is slightly superior accuracy wise especially given that you have Lapua factory brass as an option. R 10X behind a Hornady Vmax 40gr at a BC of 285 going @3900+ fps is good for 500 yards.

 

[.357Mag]

flat shooting varmint caibre

Phill -

G'day on ya !

Based on just your post's title... flat trajectory seems to hold a key place in you cartridge considerations ( and yes... there ARE of course, others ).

Might I suggest you give at least some passing thought, to use of a high vel .224" cal round ?

The .17, .19 & .20 cal cases won't quite have as-wide-a bullet " throw weight range; as would a 1-14 twist .224" cal cartridge. To better-match bullet selection to the intended game,
a 1-14 .224" cal could easily handle 40-55gr bullets'; with the larger-capacity .224's able to accurately propel bullets of even 60-63gr wt ( if they are not overly-long custom bullets).

With a larger case capacity choice, you'd have a little more latitude to " load down " or use a " reduced " load; should situations warrant vis-à-vis use of a smaller-capacity .224".

Certainly, flat trajectories can be had, when shooting a larger-capacity .224" caliber case.

It becomes a situation of:
How flat w/ adequate accuracy... you can shoot your chosen bullet..... and, what case capacity & barrel length will it take to do that ?

Within the many .224" cal bullet offerings, you'll find things like 55gr FMJ bullets ( for example ); often used by pelt shooters. And certainly, there are explosive .224" cal bullets aplenty.
In between, you'll find a whole host of more " old school " HPs, exposed lead tipped spritzers, solid copper bullets; non-lead bullets; you name it.

My point:
Check-out the " numbers " that can be provided by a " high-intensity " .224 .


With regards,
357Mag

 

[vicvanb]

Here is a thought in sub zero conditions, I wonder if insulating the barrel with a barrel insulation sleeve , would it keep the barrel a better temperatures and the shot more point of aim. Still keep it floated, but insulated. Do any of the Snow country long range or varment shooter use a barrel warming or insulating system.

I've lived in cold climates all my life and never heard of anyone trying to insulate the barrel to keep it warm. I don't think it would work in any event. Better to just shoot at paper in cold temps and chart where the bullets hit at different ranges under the same conditions as when you're hunting.

 

[Phill Smyth]

Impressive stats

The 20's are definitely the way to go. I'd have no problem with a 204 however I think the TAC20 is slightly superior accuracy wise especially given that you have Lapua factory brass as an option. R 10X behind a Hornady Vmax 40gr at a BC of 285 going @3900+ fps is good for 500 yards.

Once again thankyour for your experianced advice, impressive statistac's

 

[Phill Smyth]

Thanks Vic it was just a thought.

Here is a thought in sub zero conditions, I wonder if insulating the barrel with a barrel insulation sleeve , would it keep the barrel a better temperatures and the shot more point of aim. Still keep it floated, but insulated. Do any of the Snow country long range or varment shooter use a barrel warming or insulating system.

Thanks Vic, it was just a thought. When spotlighting years ago we had an insulated canvas padded gun cover bag that was like a big rectangular canvas sleeping bag. We would slide the rifles into it when not in use or if changing calibres or to a shot gun.
It would make a difference to the temperature of the rifles and the barrels after firing that were slid into it after use
It was affixed nightly to a rectangular piece of 3/4'' ply that was fixed to the high roof racks above the cabin roof of the 4x4 wagon.

 

[Lee Martin]

It's a bit impractical but I thought I'd throw my 240 Incinerator into the mix:







Hell on barrels but hitting groundhogs with 70 gr Nosler BTs @ 4,250 fps is quite a sight. I'm also currently building a 224 Clark (1:7" for 90 gr VLDs). I expect the tube to retire around 1,000 shots but we'll see.

Now if I wanted a practical varmint rifle it'd be a 204 Ruger.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

 

[Hal]

Phill

I don't know if any caliber larger than a .17 will stay inside of a fox.

New .17 custom barrels are better and smoother than than some of the older barrels.

You might check on the Predator Masters forum and see if any of those guy shoot fox with the .204.

The Saubier forum is also a good place for small caliber info.

Hal

 

[jo191145]

The 204 or variant thereof would be my choice.
Most factory rifles come with a 1-12 twist which has proven to be barely adequate for the 40 gn pills. You,ll find them fussy. Some barrels will like the 32's 35's but not the 40's. Every once in awhile you'll find one that likes the 40's and not the lighter fare. If your building an 11 or 10 twist would be wiser.

All that being said its a very capable bore for your intended purposes. Not tons of different projectiles to chose from but there's enough with varying capabilitys to suit different needs.

Bergers are for accuracy and anchoring tougher beasts.
Sierras are light jackets and explode creatures pretty good. Everything else falls in between except for maybe the newer frangibles which I'm not specifically familiar. I've shot some of the 26 gn varmint grenades at paper. They may save pelts, not sure.

As you know the smaller the bore the more fussy they are about fouling. I've tested just about every suitable powder and found when it comes to shooting without cleaning W-748 really shines. I used several Savage 204's for years in competition and clean the barrel once a year. Over 500 naked rounds and still whacking eggs at 300 yards with no appreciable loss of accuracy or POI shifts from accumulating fouling. Try a twenty, you'll love it.

 

[Phill Smyth]

Thanks All

Phill

I don't know if any caliber larger than a .17 will stay inside of a fox.

New .17 custom barrels are better and smoother than than some of the older barrels.

You might check on the Predator Masters forum and see if any of those guy shoot fox with the .204.

The Saubier forum is also a good place for small caliber info.

Hal

Thanks again Guys all great info / experienced feedback. I have the feeling that up to 40 grn max is the go, 26 to 32 most preferable. The rifle will be a custom built, so it is sounding like 204 - 24" to 26’’plus BR style bull barrel, 1: 10 twist or less, Custom or Remington short 700, trued, custom trigger, on laminated Anschutz style adjustable stock with accessory rail, it will be heavy and shot of shooting rack / bars roof and window mounted or occasionally ,Bipod /Tripod rest.
Scope needs more home work, most of my scopes are variables for Silhouette rifles Leupold 6.5 to 20 EFR standard or Premier boosted to 18 to 40 with silhouette Dots I have a 6.5 to 20 and Sightron 6 to 24 for field rifles with cross hair duplex, The BR rifles are 6 to 24, 8 to 32 and 36 powers all to fine for night shooting under spot lights.
I have never used an Illuminated sight picture, so looking for advice if dots or Cross hairs cove to much of the target out to 400m max, more often average shots 100m to 200m, but still need the extra for the long shots way out there. So any advice on the Illuminated scopes and types of sight pictures would be great. I like some of the night force I have investigated recently. But have not shot any illuminated scopes to see the efectct on the eyes adjustment to the illumination or any other night shooting factors.. Thanks again to you all, or if down south All you'all. regards Phill

 

[alinwa]

I don't understand the 204 caliber choice.

There are no bullets. Cleaning still sux.

I would go with the 22BR.

I can't see a downside based on what I'm reading here about what you want. It's bigger, faster, "flatter" and in every aspect outdoes the 204.

With good bullets. 22 bullets are refined science. The 22BR will push a real bullet over 4000fps. And into the same hole as the last one.

I find the 22BR with a brake or in your case a suppressor to be a joy and a pleasure.

And it's easy on pelts

al

 

[tim]

I don't understand the 204 caliber choice.

There are no bullets. Cleaning still sux.

I would go with the 22BR.

I can't see a downside based on what I'm reading here about what you want. It's bigger, faster, "flatter" and in every aspect outdoes the 204.

With good bullets. 22 bullets are refined science. The 22BR will push a real bullet over 4000fps. And into the same hole as the last one.

I find the 22BR with a brake or in your case a suppressor to be a joy and a pleasure.

And it's easy on pelts

al

You might study up there Al, especially exactly what .22 slug are you pushing at 4000 with a BC worth anything.
20 cal Vmax, BC 290 @ 3900+ fps, you will find it flat impossible to push anything out of the BRclose to that flat. Check the numbers.
They clean up just fine....no harder than anything else. Cannot imagine what you find tough.

 

[vicvanb]

You might study up there Al, especially exactly what .22 slug are you pushing at 4000 with a BC worth anything.
20 cal Vmax, BC 290 @ 3900+ fps, you will find it flat impossible to push anything out of the BRclose to that flat. Check the numbers.
They clean up just fine....no harder than anything else. Cannot imagine what you find tough.

Most who bad mouth the 204 never owned one. I was skeptical of the 204 too...until I bought one.

There's no substitute for hands-on experience.

 

[Andrew B]

204 and the wind

If his average shots are 200 yards, no more than 400 yards at something the size of a fox, he is okay with a 204. If he was shooting a 17 and was happy with that, a 204 should be fine for him as well. I do not care for them as I always end up shooting far and with wind.

I shoot prairie dogs from Texas to South Dakota and the guys who bring 204's curse and put them away very quickly in the wind. And there is always wind. Most of the time I shoot a 87gr vmax out of a 6x47 lapua. Shoots far and has less wind drift. Definately does pelt damage on a PD at 3500 fps. The rest of the time I shoot 6br (65gr) anfd 22-250 (55gr). 75 amax in the 22-250 with an 8 twist is a pretty good answer for long and windy as well. Am considering a 22BR, which seems to do everyting a 22-250 will do, just better.

Tried a 6ppc this past summer with 55gr noslers, did not care for that. 3400 fps, trajectory like a bowling ball. Very accurate, just not flat.

We need an exploding prairie dog emoticon

 

[Boyd Allen]

A friend, who builds rifles, built a very accurate ( at 100 yards) .240 Ruger, custom barrel, the works. Although he was getting impressive groups, he noticed that with the best powder, TAC, he was giving 50 FPS variation in velocities. (all of this with his favorite 32 grain. plastic tipped bullets) He rechambered the barrel .085 shorter, and cut down his dies. The accuracy and velocity are virtually identical, and his ES is in the high single digits. As one reaches out farther, this begins to matter more and more. Have you considered the .20 practical, which is nothing more than a necked down .223? That is the case that he is using for his shortened .204.

 

[Phill Smyth]

All great info from your experiance thank you

A friend, who builds rifles, built a very accurate ( at 100 yards) .240 Ruger, custom barrel, the works. Although he was getting impressive groups, he noticed that with the best powder, TAC, he was giving 50 FPS variation in velocities. (all of this with his favorite 32 grain. plastic tipped bullets) He rechambered the barrel .085 shorter, and cut down his dies. The accuracy and velocity are virtually identical, and his ES is in the high single digits. As one reaches out farther, this begins to matter more and more. Have you considered the .20 practical, which is nothing more than a necked down .223? That is the case that he is using for his shortened .204.

All great info from your experience thank you. That is why I asked the question many knowledgeable people and experiences.
The majority 90% of the shooting will be at night, fall to late winter in zero + or _ conditions.
The Any projectile that is too heavy will tear the pelts and or travel straight through that is why we used the 25grns in the Remington 17cal years ago. Like I said most shots I hope will be head shots. The early 1980's was the last time I shot for pelts for the fur trade in large numbers.
I have heard some good things about the 204's and being that a 32grn was available and they can get out there and obtain ½ or less groups at 200 plus it was worth a look and to get all of your advice.
Some braggers in the past have commented that under a spot light they have head shot this and that out at 400m - 500m. That is a long way in good day light, let alone at night with a good spotlight and most do not know their real distances.
So that is why I said out to 400m, I have nailed many out that far but not often, if you know what I mean. I have missed many head shots and hit the neck or missed all together going for the head shot.
Over a winter out at those long shots I nailed 10 or 20 but that was 30 years ago and better eyes.
This is all an exercise to see if the numbers stack up to shoot 1,000 plus pelts a winter,
a. The Rifle - combination,
b. The scope power and ?illuminated or std,
c. Ammo (powder, cases, primers projectiles)
d. vehicle, fuel and running costs.
e. and then the access to properties to shoot large numbers.

I have a beautiful BDL Remington trued and accurate 223AcImp 1:8 twist that shoots 1/2'' at 100 to 200. I have not done much testing just shot the barrel in as I fire formed some cases and it was doing just under 1/2 at 100 and the group at 200 was just a whisker better, using light loads 45grn Hornady projectiles, so who know what it will do, when some good load combos are tested.
I do thank you all and keep it coming it is all learning and great info from you all. Regards Phill

 

[James M.]

An often overlooked cartridge for varmint work is a full length .22 PPC. Bullet maker, Jerry Lahr of MN uses his with fragile 50 gr. bullets for prairie dogs and other varmints. I will not relate the velocity that he gets, but let me say that it is substantial. Good shooting....James