Fire forming brass for a ppc

B

Bench 1

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So far I have only fire formed brass loading them with some old lead and some powder that I dont use for anything else. But I have read some stuff about using pistol powder to fill the case to the botom of neck and plugging it with wax.I need some advise on weather this works as good and if so what type of powder works the best. Also when they say plug it with wax I am asuming they are talking about just candle wax or am I wrong. If this works I would like to try it as I can see where it would be faster and alot cheaper. Thanks in advance for any help
 
Bench I have been doing it this way for many years as have others here.
The wax I use has been the sheet candle wax or bee's wax you can buy at most hobby and craft shops. There are some that use dental wax sheets.
My primary reason is also that when I turn I am turning to the actual neck shoulder junction.
For me another advantage is that I dont have to go to the range 1 1/2 hours away. I have an old barrel I put on. I can fire 50+ rounds without letting the barrel cool.
There are quite a few of us that do this and there are some who seem to be against it.
I have also used roll insulation and fire formed in the house but then thats another story.
 
Thanks Vern is there a certain powder I should use for this? And how much I have been told to fill the cases to the bottom of neck. I started to buy some cheap winchester ball powder for shotshell & and med. velocity pistols but wasnt sure if that would work. What is the reason for using pistol powder instead of some cheap rifle powder? Thanks for helping I just want to make sure I do it the wright way.
 
I use 20/28 shotgun powder just because it happens to be what I use to reload 20ga shells with.

The shotgun or pistol powder is used because it's faster burning, giving you a better initial "pop" to blow the cases out (I'm sure someone can give a better technical explanation), rifle powder needs the pressure of the bullet to do it. I thought about pistol powder but to me it seemed it would be too much pop and I can load the case full with the shotgun stuff.

I've heard of people loading a 220 case with rifle powder and a .22 bullet and shooting it out of a junk barrel but I think the shotgun powder accomplishes the same thing in a little more controlled and safer manner.
 
...............I've heard of people loading a 220 case with rifle powder and a .22 bullet and shooting it out of a junk barrel .....

No reason to use a junk barrel - it just sounds like it wouldn't be good on a barrel.
 
I've been told that it's okay to skip the fire-forming process; just load and shoot in your regular barrel -- and the accuracy is not too bad. What do guys "in the know" say about that?
 
I don't do any fireforming when making 6ppc from 220 Russian. Push the shoulders back far enough to chamber, after expending to 6mm, outside neck turn, load with 26 grs. of N133 & a 68 gr. Berger & go shooting. Some very surprising groups at 1 & 200 yards.
 
I use bullseye.
REMEMBER wax only no bullet, and only a small amount of wax.
I put the bullseye to the shoulder area.
 
The accuracy is never exactly where it will be until after about 2 firings. Again my main reason for fire forming with wax and bullseye is so that when I turn the necks I know exactly where the junction will be, and turn to there.
I dont have any donuts or any other problems.
I fire form with wax, resize, expand with the mandrel necessary for turning. Then Trim then turn, chamfer inside and out.
NOTE I do 100 at a time for a new barrel use them to find tune with and by the time I have found tune and done some practice they have been fired the second time and are ready for a match.
 
Available on 6mmBR

Bench, I suggest going to 6mmBR and find the search window. Put in 6PPC and a picture of Lou & Ferris will come up. Under the picture are the Three (3) accepted ways to produce 6PPC cases.
Centerfire
 
From the accurateshooter.com 6PPC page

[h=2]Fire-Forming Cases[/h] [h=3]There are three basic methods to form 6PPC cases.[/h]
Speedy_PPCx270.jpg
Method 1
Fire-Form with Pistol Powder, No Bullet:

With this method, you load a case with pistol powder, seal the case mouth with wax or modeling clay, and then just shoot off the charge. There are many variations on the theme, using different loads of powder and various fillers, but we suggest just loading the case with Bullseye up to the neck, top with wax (NO BULLET of course!), and forget the fillers. This will produce very consistent cases, particularly if you use a dedicated fire-forming barrel with .002-.003″ shortened headspace for a good crush fit. It’s sensible to set up the fire-forming barrel with a no-turn neck, so you can neck-turn after fire-forming. If you are using a chamber with normal headspace (such as when fire-forming with your match barrel), we recommend you run an expander down the neck to get an outside diameter just equal to the chamber size. This helps with crush fit, and seals the chamber, reducing blow-by. For example, if you have .010″ neck thickness, and a .262″ neck, you want to expand the neck inside diameter to .242″ (after springback). Since there is no bullet in place, the case-neck will go in the chamber even with this tight clearance. Note: you can buy expanders in various diameters, but you may have to turn down the diameter slightly to get just the right amount of expansion. WARNING: NEVER USE the FIRE-FORMING PISTOL POWDER in YOUR REGULAR LOAD WITH BULLETS–THIS CAN BE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!.
Method 2
Fire-Form with 6mm bullet and Full Load:

The second method is to fire-form with a 6mm bullet in place using your regular rifle powder. To save wear on your precious match barrel, again, this can be done with a dedicated fire-forming barrel. It’s fine to use a “throw-away” PPC barrel that has lost its accuracy, but you want to make sure the chamber is the same as your match gun, or your fire-formed rounds may not fit. You expand the brass with a 6mm expander, then turn the cases to fit your chamber. (You may wish to leave the very end of the neck a couple thousandths larger than the rest of the neck so you get a crush fit–you can then make a final neck-turning pass after fire-forming). Load a full charge, seat the bullets into the lands, and shoot. After initial fire-forming you’ll want to shoot the cases one or two times in your match barrel to get a final perfect fit. Most shooters will then uniform the primer pockets, and some will ream the flash holes. Some shooters like to do a final neck-turning pass after fire-forming. Once you do the case prep you prefer, the cases are ready for competition.

Method 3
Load with .222 Bullet in 6PPC Chamber:

The third method, loading a 220 Russian normally and shooting it in a 6PPC chamber, is less well-known but reportedly works well. Start with a 6mm fire-forming barrel chambered like your match barrels. You simply take the 220 Russian case, fill it with a normal charge of rifle powder (H322, Benchmarks, VV N133), and seat any inexpensive .222 bullet. Chamber the round and fire. This will blow the shoulder forward and expand the neck to your exact chamber dimension. The .22-caliber bullet just sails down the oversize bore (don’t use your match barrel for this!). Reports are that this results in very uniform necks. After fire-forming, expand the neck and turn to your desired diameter. The only negative in this process is that you will be wasting bullets, so use cheap ones. Also, you’ll need some kind of .22-caliber seating die. By contrast, with the no-bullet/wax-plug method you can basically fire-form at the bench with no tools other than a primer seater and a powder dipper. Thanks to K. Highfield of Sydney, Australia for this tip.
 
My fire forming barrel has a 262 neck also. But it shouldnt matter if the necks are not turned down before fire forming if you are using wax and no bullets. Am I thinking correctly ? So I should be able to bump the shoulders back enough on a new case so that it will chamber. Load with Bullseye plug it with wax and shoot it. Then resize, expand with mandrel, trim and turn. Is this correct ?
 
You may not have to bump the shoulder. Try it first. The reason that this comes up is that when you expand before fire forming, some of the thicker shoulder material becomes part of the bottom of the neck. I I have rough turned to .010 (for a .262 neck) at .22 caliber before fire forming without bullets. It leaves you with less expanding to do before turning at 6mm, and that will give you straighter necks.
 
That is correct.
Though in previous times I use to fire form from the neck out of the box sometime ago after reading speedy's article i started expanding then running it through the sizing die so that it was a close fit in the chamber I think it was a better fit.
I too used a .262 neck fire form barrel at first, until I wore out a .269 barrel. Dosent seem to make a diff as long as its wax.
 
You may not have to bump the shoulder. Try it first. The reason that this comes up is that when you expand before fire forming, some of the thicker shoulder material becomes part of the bottom of the neck. I I have rough turned to .010 (for a .262 neck) at .22 caliber before fire forming without bullets. It leaves you with less expanding to do before turning at 6mm.

Can you add some clarity here? I might understand how the "shoulder material becomes part of the bottom of the neck"; however, why would it not also do so if you fire-form before expanding? Also, why would turning before fire-forming affect the amount of expanding to do?
 
You can fireform before expanding. I did for years. The supposed reason for expanding first is to get a greater seal in the chamber when the case is fired when using the wax method. Honestly I dont know if there is much difference in expanding before or not but since it added a little bit of assurance to the process I have opted to do it. Though as I said I have done it for years without expanding.

And Boyd is right. There have been times that I had to bump the shoulder to get the bolt to close and other times I didnt. Same caliber. But dont bump it any more than is necessary to close the bolt properly.
 
It is simply that when you fire form before expanding to 6mm, there is room to close the bolt without bumping, and during fire forming the chamber limits the resulting shape of the case. When you expand before fire forming, there is nothing to prevent the case from taking a shape that requires excessive effort to chamber.

The more that you expand a neck, with a mandrel, the crookeder the case will become because of the neck being cocked. Expanding a .220 Russian case neck up to be turned at .22 caliber involves a very minor amount of expanding that does not harm the straightness of the case. Reducing the thickness of the neck from say .0145 to .010 means that the ID of the neck has more room to open up when fire formed using the no bullet method. This means that the amount of expanding that is done to turn at 6mm is significantly reduced, with the result that the cases are straighter after turning. One feature of this straightness is a more even cut on the cases shoulder. I prefer to put a light cut on the shoulder with the leading bevel of my cutter, rather than bump the shoulder to facilitate bolt closure, because I have found that there is less of a tendency to form a doughnut. If I simply expand up .220 Russian brass to 6mm, and turn it, cases are more crooked, resulting in an uneven cut on their shoulders. This may be more of an aesthetic than functional issue, but I avoid the "problem" by altering my method.
 
hey guys try this and see what you think. im going to give it up.. I take a virgin 220 russian case..lube my bolt lugs and rear cam up good. rifle in cleaning vise..I chamber a 220 russian case in the chamber, now it goes in hard but with the brass being annealed and soft..it sizes the case. I run the bolt once or twice on it..when you remove the brass from the chamber you will notice a ring on the shoulder..that is your turn to line..now i lube the case up and run it on my expander iron, turn the neck,check it with a ball mic, may even rerun it on the turner if i did not get a good reading on the mic.now the important part you MUST chamber the cases in the rifle again now!. if not you may not get it to chamber with a bullet in it..so rechamber the now turned case, you will notice it goes in harder than it did when it was a new case..but after you chamberd it again it is now ready to load and fire form..I load full case of H322 jam a cheap or left over bullets into the lands even though i feel there is no reason to jam the lands i do.you will notice that the cases look so different than any other method i have tryed and they all are the same and just come out perfect with one fire forming..plus it slows the turning process down slightly,helps keep the turner temp down and the same from cases to case.. if you have a virgin 220 russian case laying around give it a try and see what you think..
 
I was wondering if anyone had a .220 russian case that needed turned and gave it a try to see how it worked for them?
 
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