Equipment sharing

B

Brian_K

Guest
I’m going to have to get something off my chest, it’s been bothering me for a while (and prior to Plzen)

This is maybe just a personal thing, but I’m a great believer that if you go to a match you “shoot what you brought”

Now that’s not to say if you have a malfunction you can’t arrange to replace, or for example if a team only has three LV rifles and six entered in the LV class they cannot share, but that being the case then you cannot go outside your own team/countrymen to borrow/use said piece of equipment.

This is obviously aimed at large international matches rather than domestic (unless teams are being used domestically). I’m not picking on any one individual, as I can see from the pictures that are now becoming available that several shooters have adopted this policy.

When it gets to the stage that some shooters have not even used one of their own rifles to compete with, I have to be honest, that doesn’t sit well with me.

It basically boils down to those that have the most contacts are pre arranging the use of the best rifles and elevating their position in the final results to the detriment of the guy who has put a lot of time, money and effort into his pride and joy, only to be beaten by the “killer” that the privileged few are sharing between themselves.

What say you Bill?

Brian
 
Hi Brian, I take it you mean me and not Bill Calfee as I am having a be nice week :eek:

This is a hard one and i understand your point but the expense for people travelling sometimes sharing has to happen especially when it's a long way to travel like Australia 2015, teams will have the opportunity to share 3 ways to save expense etc.

U can use me as an example fro Plzen, I qualified for all matches but it would be near impossible to take 5 rifles, so I have to share, borrow or take the Martin Menke option and build 1 rifle for 3 classes, in saying that i also shared my guns too to assist people.

More often than not when someones shares their rifle, they set it up on the rest, hand over the good ammo and the borrower gets the easy job to sit relax and hopefully pull the trigger at the right time and usually beats the owner.

In saying that the person who shoots and gets the highest score I guess deserves the win, so I am on the fence on this one,
 
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As I say, I had to get it off my chest, I feel better now.

Cutting travelling costs is a major factor for sure, and sharing equipment WITHIN A TEAM is to be encouraged to this end. But when a shooter arranges what they feel are the best rifles available from various countries (and I see several examples) for his/her own use or those close to them, it just makes me cringe a bit when I see it happening.

This games tough enough and getting tougher, I don’t believe this sort of practice is to be encouraged. Limiting sharing within a team/country would help to stamp it out and not discourage the vast majority who do the job fair and square (in my book) and shoot the rifles they/their team built/brought with them.

Just my 2c on the subject, a trouble shared is a trouble halved.

Brian
 
Interesting, I hadn't thought of the 'sharing equipment' aspect of the game before. In benchrest how much is shooter skill and how much is equipment accuracy? I use to think it was a proportion of 60/40, lately I'm starting to believe more like 50/50. I can see your point in the benchrest game, in field target I've always thought the ratio was closer to 80/20.
Benchrest definitely requires more technical/mechanical skills to be near the top.
Dan


Brian_K said:
I’m going to have to get something off my chest, it’s been bothering me for a while (and prior to Plzen)

This is maybe just a personal thing, but I’m a great believer that if you go to a match you “shoot what you brought”

Now that’s not to say if you have a malfunction you can’t arrange to replace, or for example if a team only has three LV rifles and six entered in the LV class they cannot share, but that being the case then you cannot go outside your own team/countrymen to borrow/use said piece of equipment.

This is obviously aimed at large international matches rather than domestic (unless teams are being used domestically). I’m not picking on any one individual, as I can see from the pictures that are now becoming available that several shooters have adopted this policy.

When it gets to the stage that some shooters have not even used one of their own rifles to compete with, I have to be honest, that doesn’t sit well with me.

It basically boils down to those that have the most contacts are pre arranging the use of the best rifles and elevating their position in the final results to the detriment of the guy who has put a lot of time, money and effort into his pride and joy, only to be beaten by the “killer” that the privileged few are sharing between themselves.

What say you Bill?

Brian
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DanB said:
Interesting, I hadn't thought of the 'sharing equipment' aspect of the game before. In benchrest how much is shooter skill and how much is equipment accuracy?
Dan
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Dan
Those who are getting beat will always say it's all about the gun, those who are picking up medals will say it's more about the the shooter.

Peter
 
Dan,

With air rifle I would agree with your proportions of 50/50 and wouldn’t argue with your original 60/40, however with rimfire the contribution of equipment content rises sharply, I’m of the opinion it’s 30/70 i.e. 70% of the required accuracy to produce winning scores are produced by the rifle. Ask the majority of rimfire benchrest shooters in the US if, given the opportunity, they would rather use their rifles in a match or one belonging to Tony Harper, I bet I know what the answer is.

Those that undertake to acquire the best rifles prior to a match are as aware of this as much as I am. It happened in this competition and it happened at the 2008/2011 Worlds. It’s also prevalent in the States, I’ve heard the same complaint being raised regards certain groups of shooters in ARA.

It’s maybe just a personal thing, but I don’t like it and consider it little more than cheating.

The ones to be applauded from the recent competition are those that produced scores using their own equipment, Andi Ponomarov, (overall air rifle champion) using his own self modified LG400. Atezeni Giovani (overall rimfire champion), I don’t know this guy, but I doubt anyone would go out of their way to “acquire” an Anschutz 1907. To then proceed to kick the butt of those that do undertake this unsavoury practice fills me with joy.

The vast majority of shooters use their own equipment and occasionally may share with a team mate, mostly in times of malfunction or to aid in travelling costs etc. The practice of “acquiring” for gain is performed by the minority, those bent on obtaining medals regardless of the effort put in by their fellow competitors.

Will anything be done about it? I don’t think so. For the sake of peace and quiet I won’t go into the reasons why.

Brian
 
While I'll agree that I don't think guns should be shot by multiple shooters in the same match. Not even between teams members. If you can't afford to go to a match then don't go or bring the guns you can afford to travel with. However, calling someone a Cheater for not breaking any rule is piss poor sportsmanship.
 
Pardini said:
While I'll agree that I don't think guns should be shot by multiple shooters in the same match. Not even between teams members. If you can't afford to go to a match then don't go or bring the guns you can afford to travel with. However, calling someone a Cheater for not breaking any rule is piss poor sportsmanship.
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Russ,

In essence I agree with your initial comment, but in reality the cost of travelling around the world to these events is of serious consideration. This is part of the equipment the Philippine team brought with them:

557875_477634365666735_673327642_n_zps7003b01c.jpg


I wouldn't even like to hazard a guess as to the cost of hauling all that from the Philippines to Europe. So for that reason alone I’m not against the sharing of equipment within a team.


As I said, I was just getting something off my chest I felt need airing. To clarify, I never called any single individual a cheat, merely that I view the act of pursuing the acquisition of perceived superior equipment (through loan) for personal gain unsportsmanlike– Having thought about it, the word “cheat” may have been too strong, I withdraw it and you may use the sentence marked in bold above.

Brian
 
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Let's not take the Comradership, Friendship & Goodwill out of our Sport, here is a photo of Craig Young "Sharing" some Team Phillipine Equipment )chill( and move on.
 

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There’s no one trying to take any of those things out of the sport Bill. The point of the exercise (for me) was not to use the Comradeship, Friendship and Goodwill of others to obtain better equipment for personnel gain. To put it in a nutshell “shoot what ya brung” and stand by those results.

The guys that did that at Plzen, which is the vast majority, can feel justly proud of their achievements, wherever they were placed.

But you’re right, move on, the points been made and I appreciate nothing is going to change.

Brian
 
Yep ok Im done with this too, we can agree to disagree on what works and whats fair or not, sort of like postal matches that we also differ on, but it's all good as long as we can all shoot and have fun. It's Sunday Night down here so my good week has come to an end :eek:
 
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:eek: I will try and do worse next time Todd I promise.

Pretty sure this was not just singled at me just a general opinion and gripe Brian has and is entitled too, but maybe you have hit on something if the rifle is rented and not borrowed maybe it's ok.

Mate if you need to borrow a rifle in Australia i am more than happy to recipricate, though you should travel light, a pair of thongs and some Board Shorts will do it.
 
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Bill Collaros said:
:eek: I will try and do worse next time Todd I promise.

Pretty sure this was not just singled at me just a general opinion and gripe Brian has and is entitled too, but maybe you have hit on something if the rifle is rented and not borrowed maybe it's ok.

Mate if you need to borrow a rifle in Australia i am more than happy to recipricate, though you should travel light, a pair of thongs and some Board Shorts will do it.
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Just to confirm Bill, I hadn’t singled you out. Although I was aware you had arranged to borrow an air rifle off Todd, to be honest, I’d forgotten about it.

As you say, it was just a general gripe about the whole aspect of sharing rifles unnecessarily (IMHO), not just at this competition – gripe made, gripe over.

But just to point out, you only need to hire a rifle for 20 minutes now, so there’s a cost saving for you ;)

Brian
 
Just to add, the renting of rifles has gone on for some time. Martin Menke from Germany has been doing this for a while, in fact, after making a hash of my first two cards in a competition some years ago, I hired one of his rifles to shoot the last card with, more out of curiosity than anything, it shot very well.

Far be it from me to stand in the way of a man and his living, so I’m on the fence with that one.

Brian
 
Brian_K said:
Just to confirm Bill, I hadn’t singled you out. Although I was aware you had arranged to borrow an air rifle off Todd, to be honest, I’d forgotten about it.

As you say, it was just a general gripe about the whole aspect of sharing rifles unnecessarily (IMHO), not just at this competition – gripe made, gripe over.

But just to point out, you only need to hire a rifle for 20 minutes now, so there’s a cost saving for you ;)

Brian
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LoL :cool: or a loss as I rent out more than I hire
 
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who cares how someone gets a rifle

whether they buy it, borrow it etc. Obviously its less expensive to borrow a proven rifle than to build from scratch, but I think someone who only "borrowed" would wear out their welcome pretty quickly. Its a good thing that shooters are confident enough in their own abilities to not worry they'll be beaten by their own equipment. And if someone is shooting well with one of the lesser rifle, let them borrow a higher end rifle to see if helps them shoot much better. would you restrict rests, flags,scopes, bags (or folding lawn chairs!)
 
Why even go if one doesn't have a competative rifle?

As for ratios of rifle vs shooter, I don't know but I do know with some certainty one can not hope to win with a rifle that doesn't shoot accurately. I think I R 50/50 has it about right with regard to equipment sharing. If we had more support financially from somewhere for travel expenses, the rifle part may be easier for everyone. Another alternative could be a convertible rifle that could be changed from one class to another easily. It should be a lot less costly to have a kit to go from one class to another. I do not believe the "shooting what one brings" concept for championship events adds anything to either competition or the advancement of the sport. Finding a less expensive way to get the competitive accuracy may be worth doing, IMHO.
 
Pete Wass said:
As for ratios of rifle vs shooter, I don't know but I do know with some certainty one can not hope to win with a rifle that doesn't shoot accurately. I think I R 50/50 has it about right with regard to equipment sharing. If we had more support financially from somewhere for travel expenses, the rifle part may be easier for everyone. Another alternative could be a convertible rifle that could be changed from one class to another easily. It should be a lot less costly to have a kit to go from one class to another. I do not believe the "shooting what one brings" concept for championship events adds anything to either competition or the advancement of the sport. Finding a less expensive way to get the competitive accuracy may be worth doing, IMHO.
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How about just one good LV gun. If it can shoot 248 to 250 in LV it can shoot 248 to 250 in any class.
 
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