Dezincification of Brass-Liquid cleaners

243winxb

243winxb

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Dezincification of Brass-Liquid cleaners. Update NEVER USE VINEGAR

Is this Recipe safe to use? :confused: 1 pint of water, 1 cup of white vinegar, 1 tablespoon of salt, and 1 teaspoon of detergent". Mix the solution in container. Shake 10 minutes with brass. Rinse 10 minutes clean water. Sun dry. This was printed in an NRA reprint of loading for the 45 acp many years ago. I have used it for many years for rifles. But have had problems with brass becoming brittle in some 223 rem. http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass75.htm I found this also http://www.6mmbr.com/ultrasonic.html I would love to hear from a Chemist on the subject. Or anyone else. Thank you in advance.:)
 
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After skimming the article on dezincification and preferential dissolution I think I'd stay away from vinegar which is just dilute acetic acid, or any other acid, weak (like vinegar) or strong (like hydrochloric, nitric, or sulfuric). Having nice, shiny, like-new-looking brass might be nice, but if there's ANY chance that the cleaning might weaken the brass I'll take scruffy looking brass anytime. I just tumble my dirty brass (from any self-loader, or revolver) in corn cob. That cleans the stuff off the outside that could scratch dies which is all that really matters. Brass from other rifles is tumbled when it begins to look too bad. Spiffy-clean cases don't shoot any better.

If you remove the zinc from brass you've got copper, if you only remove part of the zinc you've got weakened brass. I sincerely doubt that brass except for specific applications has any arsenic added since arsenic is nasty stuff. Kill ya dead nasty in fact, after it's made you sick for awhile too.

Yes, I used to be an analytical chemist up until just over ten years ago when I retired and life became much better.... :D
 
I don't think you have.......

to leave that in there for 10 minutes. If the water is warm, or hot, just agitate it, or shake it just for a minute or two, then dump the mixture & change the rinse water after a minute, allowing the new water to sit w/the brass inside for 5 minutes or so, then dump again. Once you have it clean, future tumbling should be done w/a tablespoon of powdered ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in a large tumbler, 2-3Tsp. in smaller sizes. By not using the ascorbic acid, you actually shorten the life of the brass, which all the tumbling, and/or annealing won't save, because of the ammonia which is inside, as a result of the chemical being produced by combustion.
 
Ammonia is produced on combustion of smokeless powder? It's amazing that I've got cases that are 30 years old that are still just fine if there's all that ammonia in them from firing. I'd like to see the chemistry of that one.
 
Yeah Lar........

there was a quite lenghty "letter to the editor" in either Rifle or Handloader a few years back, I'll see if I can find it. It has to do w/what is termed "stress corrosion cracking". It made a believer out of me when I found about 45-50% of some deuces I had reloaded, & unfired since about '75, that had vertical & radial cracks on the necks. Say, after being an analytical chemist in your past life, why don'cha drag out some of the stuff you used/had in the past, & do some analytical chemitizing for us & report your findings??? Maybe those cases you have are so fine because you didn't leave them LOADED for 30 years; I mean, it IS called "STRESS corrosion cracking", maybe you can load up some & leave 'em loaded for the next 30 years & get back to us on your practical, if not chemical, deductions. After being a chemist, it ought to be fairly simple to do some chem. analysis & give us your findings; I don't have the materials or training or inclination, but it shouldn't be rocket science. I read the letter & thought, "Hhmmm, let me go check some of my stuff to see if......". And BINGO!!! what the guy said would/could happen, had happened to me! So, I started to use the technique he advocated, as he also said that annealing would, in this case, NOT cure the problem. There are numerous chemicals released upon firing, & I was once told that when the rifle is fired those chemicals & dissimilar materials coming down the bore was something like a mild battery acid following the bullet. But hey, I'm not a chemist (& I don't play one on TV:D) I just try to take care of my stuff, because I can't just replace things on a whim. Replys like yours tend to make people NOT offer information; I read the letter & it made sense to me, so I didn't start a pissing contest with the author. :rolleyes::D SEEya.
 
Uh, sure Brian. ;) Chemistry isn't like what's shown on the tv, and I doubt that if I loaded some ammunition up now that I'd be around in 30 years to see what it looked like anyway. If someone would like to supply me with a nice lab, a half million bucks could probably cover it for a short while, and some ambition I might give the problem a look. Too old and too retired to do chemistry now. :eek:

Loaded ammunition can have neck problems because for whatever reason the necks tighten and age harden around the bullets. I'm not a metallurgist, but I'm sure that if there's one lurking out there they could give us a simple answer. I've fired old (at least 20 years, maybe 25) factory loads that produced about 50% splits on firing. Since I didn't look at the necks under any sort of magnification before firing so don't know if that would have shown anything.

My theory is that brass like some aluminum alloys age hardens. When it's under stress from being loaded for a long time and trying to return to it's previous size which it can't because of the bullet in the way it cracks. No chemistry is involved it's due to the nature of the material.

I'm not trying to start a pissin' match either, but there are a lot of things offered in print and on the internet that sound good, and may not hurt, but whether they help or not is open to question. Most people don't have 30 year old loaded ammunition lying around, although old military ammo seems to work just fine without any problems. I've got some early 40's military 9mm made in Canada that fired fine when it was at least 40 years old, and the cases were reloaded several times with no problems.

The only thing I can imagine that would cause brass to fail if fired and not reloaded would be mercuric primers. Mercury and copper will form an amalgam that will ruin cases. Most modern powders and primers while not being completely innocuous don't produce byproducts that are harmful to cases or the bore.
 
I understand that, Larry........

and in my mind, I touched on all the things you mentioned, & I have seen old military ammo fired w/no ill effects, either. But I also considered this: If it was never fired & reloaded, & survived the first firing, then why would once fired & reloaded brass suffer from the splitting & cracking? I know what you mean about age hardening & tension, as well as some splitting on the first firing from overly old ammo; but, as a chemist(or ex-chemist), what about the paper test-strips, wouldn't ammonia show up on one of those?? If you took a fired case, w/o cleaning, put some water inside and let it sit overnight, then dipped the test-strip in there, would the presence of ammonia, or acid, be detected then?? And I'm not trying to put you on the spot, here, I mean, it made sense to me, and I was hoping that somebody like you could come along & try it out. The explanation the fella gave in the letter made sense at the time, it was VERY well written, & I haven't been able to find it, its in the piling system, somewhere. The presentation made sense the way it was laid out. I have started using it myself, & keeping an eye on it.
 
Brian, do you have any idea when that letter was published. I've got RIFLE and HANDLOADER back to the early 70's so if I had an idea where it was I'd read it and be able to comment better.

About all that could be told from using pH test strips would be the pH (acidity or basicity) and wouldn't tell what was producing the raised or lowered pH. Smokeless powder will produce acid if it decomposes from age or too high storage temperatures, and it would seem likely that if powder decomposed inside a loaded round that the results would not be pretty.

Nitric acid, from the decomposition of the powder, eats copper for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Back in the old days when most powders were packed in containers made from metal or ones that had metal parts it was common to find rusting on the metal when the powder began to decompose. I could certainly see the powder starting to decompose if ammunition were stored at high temps. That could/would attack the case and produce failures on firing.
 
Ammonia and brass

A metallurgist has said that "stress corrosion" happens when ammonia is used on brass for cleaning. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=417310 But is ammonia formed/created with combustion of powder:confused: Sure would be great to know. My brass was cleaned in the NRA mix and stored for around 20 years. On firing 4% came apart. The photos are of some that came apart when neck sizing using standard dies where the brass is overworked. The expander button pulled the necks apart.I am guessing they were already cracked from firing. The inside of some brass necks will turn green if let stand for a long time after firing. Some chemical must be attacking the brass i would think? So far, great information guys, thank you.
223LC86Brittle_002.jpg
 
Hey, Gerald, what is...........

M/30???

Okay, Larry, I may be all wet, BUT, if you go to Rifle magazine, No.135, Letters To The Editor, there is the original letter. I did NOT get Rifle No. 136 and there was a REPLY to the original in there. I guess I'll have to get that one & read it


243winXB; In your original recipe, you called for a PINT of water. I believe I'd use about two gallons or so. I re-read your original post and thought, that couldn't be right, the vinegar would be too strong & cause problems. I'd use 2-4 gallons, let it sit near the time specified, then dump, put in fresh water & agitate, then dump & fill & let sit 20 mins, then spread out on warm concrete for an hour or two, to dry, mouths pointed downhill.;)

OR, I'd tumble w/ascorbic acid as recommended, & add maybe 1-1.5 oz. of water to the media FIRST(to keep the dust down in a BIG tumbler) then, when the media stopped clumping, & had been running for about 20mins; I'd add the ascorbic evenly, then put in the brass. ;)
 
I am hoping for a reply from the NRA, but have found this

brian, The vinegar has 15% acetic acid content, so i was thinking thats not a whole lot. But if i read the link correctly, brass will withstand 20% to 100% pure acetic acid. :confused: http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass73.htm If i understand this correctly, the rifle brass is strong enough to handle vinegar(acetic acid) for a short period of time (10minutes).:confused:
"Acetic Acid Admiralty brass used for centrifugal pumps handling 20%-100% acid at 20oC"
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( Admiralty Brass,copper alloy 260, 70% Copper & 30% zinc used in brass for firearms.) Will Handle Vinegar (Acetic Acid) with no problems. I feel that the NRA RECIPE 1 pint water, 1 cup white vinegar, 1 tablespoon salt, 1 tea spoon detergent will NOT hurt brass when washed for 10 minutes then rinsed for 10 minutes in mild ascorbic acid and sun dried.:confused: There is some arsenic and tin in brass if internet info is correct. :confused:
M/30
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http://www.m30.com/
 
I'm going to call a guy I know......

who uses a recipe similar to this, I don't know if it is exact or not. Personally, I don't see a need to "de-zinc-ify" brass at all, unless the nra is just trying to stimulate the economy of the brass manufacturers. What I was really interested in was to cut down on the loss of cases that fell victim to stress corrosion cracking. I read the letter to the editor, thought it made sense, since I'd been told a few times, by an engineer, that upon firing the round, that the chemistry involved, coupled w/the dissimilar materials(copper, steel, debris, etc.), that it was akin to "giving the bore a shot of battery acid...". So, my intent was to do anything possible to forestall, if not eliminate, this condition. I get a bit tired of wearing out cases by expanding primer pockets, let alone destroying them by indulging in the sport; & when I saw I had the same described cracking on my babies, I thought, "...I gotta DO something about this, Tonto...":D SEEya.
 
Are Homemade Liquid Brass Cleaners Safe - My Conclusion is ............

This recipe for a liquid brass cleaner should be safe. I feel that this recipe containing 1 pint water, 1 cup white vinegar, 1 tablespoon salt, 1 tea spoon detergent will not hurt brass when washed for 10 minutes then rinsed for 10 minutes in mild ascorbic acid (juice from 1 lemon to 1qt water) and sun dried. Firearm brass has many names,( Admiralty Brass, Copper alloy 260 or 70% Copper & 30% zinc, with tiny amounts of tin and arsenic. The acetic acid in vinegar will not harm brass alloy of this type. Admiralty brass is used for centrifugal pumps handling 20%-100% acetic acid at 20oC. http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass73.htmWe have learned that ammonia, in any form should never come in contact with brass as "stress corrosion" caused by the ammonia will weaken brass and cause it to crack. "Stress corrosion cracking occurs under the simultaneous conditions of tensile stress and the corroding medium. When you cold work the brass by neck expanding or belling, a residual stress remains in the brass. Also, when the case is fired, the diameter expands to fill the chamber and this causes tensile stress due to stretching."
. One question still needs to be answered. Is ammonia formed/created with combustion of smokeless powder? :confused:
 
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brian roberts said:
M/30???

Okay, Larry, I may be all wet, BUT, if you go to Rifle magazine, No.135, Letters To The Editor, there is the original letter. I did NOT get Rifle No. 136 and there was a REPLY to the original in there. I guess I'll have to get that one & read it


Just got back online today, and I'll dig out RIFLE 135 and 136 ASAP and get back to you.
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Brian, finally got off my dead tail and dug out RIFLE No's 135 and 136. The letter writer in #135 had experienced neck splits in 5.56/.223 loads he'd stored for ~2 years in cases that had been fired 2-3 times. The letter in #136, apparently a metallurgist said that he used 2% (weight/volume ?) oxalic or citric acid to rinse ammonia from the cases.

He (#136) said that shooters who used ammonia based cleaners in their rifle's bores had experienced this problem from the remaining ammonia attacking the case necks. I can certainly understand how that could happen, especially if the bore wasn't patched out prior to shooting. He also says that ammonia is produced on combustion of smokeless powder, but the quantity would have to be pretty low I'd think.

Citric acid wouldn't attack brass, and should neutralize any bases like ammonia present in or on the brass. I can't say the same for vinegar, and would worry that if it weren't thoroughly rinsed from the cases that it could do as much damage as any ammonia from powder combustion.
 
Say, Larry, while you got those........

mags. out, would you mind checkin' down to #140, just in case anybody else weighs in downstream??? I'll get my friends recipe, it is basically the same, I believe, except he uses some gallons of water. I think the recipe quoted is too concentrated. He tells me he gets perfection every time, never a problem.;)
 
Brian, no problem I'll check 'em out, but won't promise any speed. Maybe later tonight, maybe tomorrow, but someday.... :D
 
Brian, I got after it tonight and looked at all the letters to the editor in RIFLE up to No. 145, but didn't find anything more on the subject. Lots of info on the .458 Lott and other varmint rifles, but nothing on case cleaning or anything remotely related.
 
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