Closing cam

Oh, oh,... Flavio's perfect manufacturing!
It's a pity he stop producing rimfire actions a long time ago.
 
Tight tolerances and many hours of hand finish work.
Impressive.
But does that lead to better performance? I ask because I do not know.
 
Eidolon said:
Tight tolerances and many hours of hand finish work.
Impressive.
But does that lead to better performance? I ask because I do not know.
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Eidolon,

In my experience anything that makes a rifle easier, and more consistent/reliable to operate helps!

The shooting process has enough for one to concentrate on without fiddling with a hard closing bolt.

If you have to use your thumb to push the round (s) in far enough in to close the action, some rounds more than others, it distracts from your primary mission of hitting those dots.

But a better way to think of it may be: If an action can be made to function smoothly and reliably why would one ever be happy with something less?

TKH (4628)
 
Eidolon said:
Tight tolerances and many hours of hand finish work.
Impressive.
But does that lead to better performance? I ask because I do not know.
Click to expand...

It appears this to be a CF action without fire control in place. You buy most CFBR actions, BAT machine in particular, probably the most widely shot, they all do that.Great machine work, no hand finishing. All of them, SS, CM, melonited or not. all my BAT’s do that, my Farley, even my early Viper.
 
Tony,
Another nice topic, another question.
I understand the WLM school and your point about distraction. I have a gun which require a modest push to easily cam over. Have you any opinions as to whether that alone potentially results in lower accuracy?
Over time, I have found it becomes 2nd nature. I can shoot a card in 4 minutes if need be and one single plus, with practice you can feel when the throat has built crap and requires cleaning out, but that’s just me.
 
Tony, A pre 64 model 70 will do the same thing, open the bolt and tilt the muzzle down and the bolt will close and the bolt handle will fall down and it was with a complete bolt ..... no big deal and the bolt is running over a follower in the Mag. A statement made then was when a model 70 was broke in a Remington was worn out...... jim
 
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tim said:
It appears this to be a CF action without fire control in place. You buy most CFBR actions, BAT machine in particular, probably the most widely shot, they all do that.Great machine work, no hand finishing. All of them, SS, CM, melonited or not. all my BAT’s do that, my Farley, even my early Viper.
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Tim,

You are correct, centerfire actions do this. Well, those that aren't bound up.

The thing I was pointing out was how smooth the bolt falls and closes. Most centerfire actions will slam shut when you pick them up and point them down.

Rimfire actions usually don't have an opening (extraction) cam, or much of a closing cam therefore their bolt will fall but not turn and close. Again, most just slam down with no particular fluid motion..

Many new owners spend a lot of time trying to get their bolt to feel good when opening/closing. Given enough time they usually get there. But rarely ever get as smooth as the Flavio in the video.

This goes to the quality of the action.

TKH (4628)
 
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He certainly does great work, apparently quite the interesting fellow as well. One of the guys from Harts is a friend of his from Super Shoot and was invited to hunt Chamois with him in the Italian alps. Guy is in his 70’s and goes up the mountains about as fast as the goats.
 
jim1K said:
Tony, A pre 64 model 70 will do the same thing, open the bolt and tilt the muzzle down and the bolt will close and the bolt handle will fall down and it was with a complete bolt ..... no big deal and the bolt is running over a follower in the Mag. A statement made then was when a model 70 was broke in a Remington was worn out...... jim
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Jim,

I have no doubt a pre-64 Model 70 will do this. But rarely will they do it as smooth as the one in the video.

The thing was pointing out is our rimfire actions rarely close as smooth and are often a point of frustration.

If you have any tips on how to make our rimfire actions perform better, please post them here.

TKH (4628)
 
tim said:
Tony,
Another nice topic, another question.
I understand the WLM school and your point about distraction. I have a gun which require a modest push to easily cam over. Have you any opinions as to whether that alone potentially results in lower accuracy?
Over time, I have found it becomes 2nd nature. I can shoot a card in 4 minutes if need be and one single plus, with practice you can feel when the throat has built crap and requires cleaning out, but that’s just me.
Click to expand...

Tim,

I believe shooters can learn to overcome a great many things and still perform to some level.

Shooting is somewhat of a mental thing, if you can focus all of your attention on the task at hand, rather than other annoying details, it has to be somewhat easier.

Some of us have as much as we can deal with just getting the target shot on time.

That said, if you can operate the rifle while shooting your target, I would say you have learned to overcome whatever distractions your set up has. But I would also wonder what if 100% of your attention was on task

would you not perform better? I think most would.

TKH (4628)
 
tonykharper said:
Jim,

I have no doubt a pre-64 Model 70 will do this. But rarely will they do it as smooth as the one in the video.

The thing was pointing out is our rimfire actions rarely close as smooth and are often a point of frustration.

If you have any tips on how to make our rimfire actions perform better, please post them here.

TKH (4628)
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I don't have a custom action that won't do the same without a huge bolt handle on it. they will all close nice and slow with the right lube on them. Closing cam what is that ? Cocking cam means more in smoothness and speed and not upsetting the rifle in the bags, that is why 3 lug actions suffer.... Jim
 
jim1K said:
I don't have a custom action that won't do the same without a huge bolt handle on it. they will all close nice and slow with the right lube on them. Closing cam what is that ? Cocking cam means more in smoothness and speed and not upsetting the rifle in the bags, that is why 3 lug actions suffer.... Jim
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Jim,

Which rimfire action are you using?

Closing cam is the cam (s) in the action body or the bolt lugs that assist in closing the action. Cocking ramps/cams certainly have an effect on cocking the bolt.

The longer the bolt lift, the longer the ramp, the smoother the bolt operates. As you mentioned three lugs have a shorter, steeper ramp, and that makes for a harder bolt lift.

Add to that a strong firing pin spring and you can get to a rifle that upsets the bags when opening.

As in most things a balance has to be found for best performance.

TKH (4628)
 
Tony, what I'm saying is that tight fit mean almost nothing.... I have Borden actions with .0015 clearance and Kelbly's that. are on the fat side of ,0035 and they both shoot in the zero's at 100. there are more important factors than that.... Jim
 
jim1K said:
Tony, what I'm saying is that tight fit mean almost nothing.... I have Borden actions with .0015 clearance and Kelbly's that. are on the fat side of ,0035 and they both shoot in the zero's at 100. there are more important factors than that.... Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

I certainly would not argue that the fit of the bolt is the most important thing for centerfire or rimfire actions.

I was simply pointing out that how a rifle's bolt operates has an effect on shooter's performance. Many rimfire actions are not as smooth as most custom centerfire actions.

Many require one to use their thumb to push the bolt forward enough to close the bolt. I don't recall ever having or seeing a centerfire action require that.

There is no reason rimfire actions can't be made to operate as smooth as centerfire actions.

It may be a small crumb, but one that can and should be dealt with.

Thank you for bringing your experience to the discussion. It is refreshing that we can disagree without being disagreeable.

TKH (4628)
 
tonykharper said:
Jim,

I certainly would not argue that the fit of the bolt is the most important thing for centerfire or rimfire actions.

I was simply pointing out that how a rifle's bolt operates has an effect on shooter's performance. Many rimfire actions are not as smooth as most custom centerfire actions.

Many require one to use their thumb to push the bolt forward enough to close the bolt. I don't recall ever having or seeing a centerfire action require that.

There is no reason rimfire actions can't be made to operate as smooth as centerfire actions.

It may be a small crumb, but one that can and should be dealt with.

Thank you for bringing your experience to the discussion. It is refreshing that we can disagree without being disagreeable.

TKH (4628)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's true....Aren't many people setting up chambers to engrave rf bullets by a lot..like .130"ish? That's not a possibility with a jacketed cf bullet and I'm not sure that getting enough camming to close that much..effortlessly, is possible. But it's calculable, if anyone wants to to some trig. I just walked in and poured a drink. I'm out for trig.:p
 
mwezell said:
I'm not sure that's true....Aren't many people setting up chambers to engrave rf bullets by a lot..like .130"ish? That's not a possibility with a jacketed cf bullet and I'm not sure that getting enough camming to close that much..effortlessly, is possible. But it's calculable, if anyone wants to to some trig. I just walked in and poured a drink. I'm out for trig.:p
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That is timing, to close smoothly, but to engrave one .130 seems a bit much to me..... Seems most rimfire guys don't talk about firing pin travel or spring tension at the cocked height or even timing... Jim
 
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