Well i finally got my new Sinclair tool and i started checking everything. Everything looks real good except my 6BR FL size die. Its putting .002- .003 run out into my fired cases after FL sizing. Im not real sure thats to much but i would like for it to be less. All my other dies are at .001 or less. Ive tried everything i know to do so i assume its the die. How much run out is to much run out? I hope this hasn't been beaten to death, if so i apologise! Any info is appreciated as always!! Lee
Case run out
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Vern
Morethan1waytoskinacat
Skeet for what its worth, my rounds are all .001 or less except when I recently annealed them.
Then I found most were out .004 or more and running them through the die didnt change them at all.
HOWEVER once I fired them again they were back to being .001 or less.
I was a little concerned that the die would not make them straight but at least I know it wont make the crooked.
Be sure and check some rounds that have been fired and not sized yet, could be the chamber and not the die.
Then I found most were out .004 or more and running them through the die didnt change them at all.
HOWEVER once I fired them again they were back to being .001 or less.
I was a little concerned that the die would not make them straight but at least I know it wont make the crooked.
Be sure and check some rounds that have been fired and not sized yet, could be the chamber and not the die.
Skeet,
simple answer, your 6BR die doesn't fit right.
It's too small.
Get a larger die.
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
Just for grins, measure a fired case, and then size it with no bushing in the die, and tell us what you get. To pull the bushing from a die that is in a mounted press, remove the top from the die, and shove a worn out bore brush through the bushing, from the top, and then pull it back out of the die...with the bushing on it.
S
squeakie
Guest
jackie schmidt
New member
Well, the heading at the top of this Web Site is Benchrest.com. In 100-200 yard Benchrest, whether score or group, we strive to minimize all variables. Some it seems we can do nothing about, but with those that we can do something about, the effort should be made to maximize the precision of every component.
I spent a lot of time getting my set-up to where it consistantly produces rounds that are .001 or less. It does take some experimenting. But, in the end, at least I have assurance that crooked ammunition is not the problem...........jackie
I do not consider striving to remove as many variables as possible from the "accuracy equation" as falling for the "gimick of the day"..........jackie
I spent a lot of time getting my set-up to where it consistantly produces rounds that are .001 or less. It does take some experimenting. But, in the end, at least I have assurance that crooked ammunition is not the problem...........jackie
I do not consider striving to remove as many variables as possible from the "accuracy equation" as falling for the "gimick of the day"..........jackie
Boyd Allen
Active member
Francis,
You might give Billly Stevens a call about whether he thinks runout is important, and how much effort he has put into minimizing it.
Pete,
So if one thing is not perfect, then we do not need to worry about doing the best we can with anyting else? Given the current level of record performance, perhaps someone has overestimated the importance of something, given the tight clearances of today's custom actions.
You might give Billly Stevens a call about whether he thinks runout is important, and how much effort he has put into minimizing it.
Pete,
So if one thing is not perfect, then we do not need to worry about doing the best we can with anyting else? Given the current level of record performance, perhaps someone has overestimated the importance of something, given the tight clearances of today's custom actions.
jackie schmidt
New member
Runnout
Francis,you make a good point, a procedure and tooling for checking something has to be used properly lest the results are a product of false readings.
Quite often shooters will come up to me at the range and ask me to check their loaded rounds. Many are quite acceptable, but a surprising number exibit runnout that most of us would consider excessive. I have even helped some diagnose the problem and solve it.
I guess it is up to each individule shooter to decide what is worth doing, and what is a waste of time. They log onto this site to ascertain good reliable info presented in a practicle manner, hopefully from shooters who actually have proven the worth of ideas in the heat of competition.........jackie
Francis,you make a good point, a procedure and tooling for checking something has to be used properly lest the results are a product of false readings.
Quite often shooters will come up to me at the range and ask me to check their loaded rounds. Many are quite acceptable, but a surprising number exibit runnout that most of us would consider excessive. I have even helped some diagnose the problem and solve it.
I guess it is up to each individule shooter to decide what is worth doing, and what is a waste of time. They log onto this site to ascertain good reliable info presented in a practicle manner, hopefully from shooters who actually have proven the worth of ideas in the heat of competition.........jackie
Boyd Allen
Active member
Francis,
I absolutely agree that the most important use of concentricity guages is as a check on the performance of one's reloading equipment. On the other hand, I have no evidence that minor straightening is a problem, and if it increases one confidence in one's ammunition, that in itself may be an advantage. One long time Southern California shooter, that recently passed away, had a little home made guage, made of wood, of all things, that was equiped with a test best type indicator, that he used to spin and tweak every round as needed. He was a long time competitor in more than one type of shooting, and I uderstand that the walls of garage were completely covered with plaques that he had one over the years. Im my more recent experience, he generally was in the match pictures with a piece of wood in his hand. As to the task of measuring runout taking a high degree of skill or inordinately complicated equipment....I have never seen anyone that found the task all that difficult to master. Of course I only have worked with seven or eight different makes of these tools, of which only perhaps three were designed to straighten, so I may not be up to speed on the latest developments.
I absolutely agree that the most important use of concentricity guages is as a check on the performance of one's reloading equipment. On the other hand, I have no evidence that minor straightening is a problem, and if it increases one confidence in one's ammunition, that in itself may be an advantage. One long time Southern California shooter, that recently passed away, had a little home made guage, made of wood, of all things, that was equiped with a test best type indicator, that he used to spin and tweak every round as needed. He was a long time competitor in more than one type of shooting, and I uderstand that the walls of garage were completely covered with plaques that he had one over the years. Im my more recent experience, he generally was in the match pictures with a piece of wood in his hand. As to the task of measuring runout taking a high degree of skill or inordinately complicated equipment....I have never seen anyone that found the task all that difficult to master. Of course I only have worked with seven or eight different makes of these tools, of which only perhaps three were designed to straighten, so I may not be up to speed on the latest developments.
jackie schmidt
New member
Well, Tony does not frequent this site. Untill he does, we will do the best we can..........jackie
Vern
Morethan1waytoskinacat
Ok after reading all of this I have to wonder about the following based on what I posted further up.
I annealed some cases and afterward they were.005-.009 out.
I ran them through the die, even bumping the shell holder on the die base.
They were exactly the way they were when they came out.
I shot some and then checked them and they were back to .001 or less.
Then run them through the die and they maintained the .001 or less.
This indicates to me that my camber is good and my dies dont alter the concentricity of the case either way.
Good or bad?
I annealed some cases and afterward they were.005-.009 out.
I ran them through the die, even bumping the shell holder on the die base.
They were exactly the way they were when they came out.
I shot some and then checked them and they were back to .001 or less.
Then run them through the die and they maintained the .001 or less.
This indicates to me that my camber is good and my dies dont alter the concentricity of the case either way.
Good or bad?
I'm hesitant to do this but John, I've got to.
I feel strongly about it, please take it as it's meant.
I disagree....... with the entire post.
And I'm a person who absolutely WILL NOT tolerate runout. I've spent years and money chasing the problem and while all the reasons listed look good on the surface, it is my opinion that really straight rounds can't be "made" by any die setup on this earth..... and furthermore that if you DO somehow "make" cases straight that they won't shoot well.
Brass....... any brass will do although some will be too soft for good accuracy and some will require more trimming/spindling/culling to get good cases...... but with proper procedure even Remington brass can be competitive.
Dies..... It is my opinion that dies can't be set up "square" nor can a press be "aligned" nor can any other of the various items in the system be "straighter" than any other system in any useful way. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that my perfect die setup would incorporate a FULLY FLOATING ram and die!!! With only the endplay to be repeatable.
Smooth..... fast or slow, smooth or not. Unless you STOP somewhere in the stroke I can't imagine any effect.
"Bad sizing die"...... It is my opinion that there is no such thing. Well, maybe one in thousands, obvious defect of some sort..... but 99.9% of all "bad" dies are perfectly fine. It's the FIT that's a problem. I've got a 7,000.00 rifle setting on my bench, built around a 21.95 RCBS die....
perty dumb eh? But the die is fine, I've fitted to it. I ordered it before ordering even the reamer for the project.It is my opinion that the RIFLE makes or breaks the brass in the first firing..... that the die's only function is to maintain what the gun made with as little impact as possible.
opinionsby
al
OK Vern..... picture it like this.....
I've got a little machine, let's call it my scrylingas, and this little unit incorporates a spring steel rod about 13" long and only .100 diameter with square ground ends... Like a very straight hunk of clothes hanger wire.
The steel rod is a free-running plunger that rides in a hole and is actuated and returned by a small spring. It must be STRAIGHT to work else't it binds in the hole.
So my liddle marmoset, Piddle-South Tailer, takes the rod out and KINKS it, just a wee bit. All's he did was tap it on the edge of the table......
But it's KINKED......
Can I straighten it?
Take it from there......
al
I've got a little machine, let's call it my scrylingas, and this little unit incorporates a spring steel rod about 13" long and only .100 diameter with square ground ends... Like a very straight hunk of clothes hanger wire.
The steel rod is a free-running plunger that rides in a hole and is actuated and returned by a small spring. It must be STRAIGHT to work else't it binds in the hole.
So my liddle marmoset, Piddle-South Tailer, takes the rod out and KINKS it, just a wee bit. All's he did was tap it on the edge of the table......
But it's KINKED......
Can I straighten it?
Take it from there......
al