Carbon Fiber barrels controversy

jbhotrod

jbhotrod

New member
So with CF wrapped barrels becoming the hot new thing in practical precision shooting, what are yalls thoughts on them? The main point of argument is that Proof CF barrels claims their barrels dissipate heat more quickly and allow the barrel to stay cooler than a barrel of the same diameter. Others(including myself) feel that the CF is only acting as an insulator, trapping the heat inside and giving the illusion its cool since the CF wrap is cool while actually the barrel under the carbon fiber is super hot..??

Check it out(hopefully with an open mind) and lets hear what yall think?:

http://www.scout.com/military/snipe...025254-upgrading-the-rpr-to-a-proof-cf-barrel
 
there is a significant difference in the meaning of "precision"
in benchrest/BENCHREST competition and Practical precision shooting.
two different games with two different equipment requirements.
 
CMaier said:
there is a significant difference in the meaning of "precision"
in benchrest/BENCHREST competition and Practical precision shooting.
two different games with two different equipment requirements.
Click to expand...

LOL no offense at all but Im very aware of this sir. My question/topic was what do yall think of Proof's idea that CF wrapped barrels will dissipate heat/stay cooler thrughout the entire course of fire. If their theory turns out true, this might very well translate to use in benchrest as well no?
 
Someone with a CF manipulation background should chime in...

Just a thought, is CF known to dissipate heat?
Are there other fields where CF is used in heat dissipation?

Phil Fortin aka tazzman:confused:
 
jbhotrod said:
LOL no offense at all but Im very aware of this sir. My question/topic was what do yall think of Proof's idea that CF wrapped barrels will dissipate heat/stay cooler thrughout the entire course of fire. If their theory turns out true, this might very well translate to use in benchrest as well no?
Click to expand...

When you say COOLER , what temperature are you hoping for ? We / I have conducted experiments here in Arizona with Barrel temperature. Average out door temperature 90-100 degrees. Firing a a 25 shot string and measuring the barrel temperature with a Digital Infrared Thermometer of 140-160 degrees and cooling the barrel with a wet cloth and reducing temperature to 60-70 degrees. I cannot see how an insulator such as CF can maintain a constant or lower temp based on consistent firing. IMHO

On a side note the CF would act as a dampener , changing the barrel harmonics,maybe for the better, maybe not. ANOTHER EXPERIMENT
 
tazzman said:
Just a thought, is CF known to dissipate heat?
Are there other fields where CF is used in heat dissipation?

Phil Fortin aka tazzman:confused:
Click to expand...

From what I have read, in certain forms, it has a high conductivity, in other forms, it is rather low.

We went through this craze about 10 years ago, I can't recall the company pushing it then. They were turning a barrel down to a minimum safe diameter and then wrapping it to where it was about 1 1/4 straight.

If I remember correctly, Remington offered this. I think the joke was they were putting expensive Carbon Fiber on a Remington Barrel.

Some of the barrel manufacturers were worried about resulting strength of the barrel in harder calibers and chambering so. I never heard of one failing.

Truth is, I never heard much about it one way or the other.

I tend to agree with what was aid before. Just how much heat is dissipated. Is it worth the effort, or is it a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Time will tell. If some Hotshot starts doing well with a Carbon Fiber Wrapped Barrel, and attributes the success to the superior heat dissipation, then it might really catch on.

As for short range Benchrest, this might be worth looking into for the Sporter Class, where there are no barrel taper rules, but with a 10.5 pound weight for the Rifle. Perhaps you could have a large diameter, light weight barrel that dissipated heat much better than a conventional profile.
 
jbhotrod,

I don't know what the effect of the carbon fiber wrapped around a barrel is in regards to heat retention/dissipation, but I do know that the concept has been around for probably 20 or so years. IIRC, Christianson Arms were the first, or close to the first, to do it. And in that 20 or so years, I don't think I've ever heard of a benchrest competitor using a carbon fiber wrapped barrel in competition, and certainly have not heard of a benchrest match being won with one.

Maybe they do shed heat faster, or maybe they don't, but in my opinion, if the carbon wrapped barrel offered ANY sort of advantage that could be realized on the target, the benchrest guys would all have them. And I'd be surprised if a few of them didn't give the carbon fiber wrapped barrels a whirl.

These barrels seem to be popular in the "tacti-cool" world. I come from the "tactical" world, as opposed to the "tacti-cool" world, having actually been on a SWAT team assigned as a long rifle (sniper). I have always kept an eye on the benchrest world as that is where every accuracy innovation in the past 50 or so years has come from. And when teaching at a long rifle school, I tell the students to do the same. Having never seen or heard of a carbon wrapped barrel at a benchrest match is pretty telling to me.

As an aside, it never ceases to amaze me the all-manner of trash some people put on their "tactical/practical" rifles. It's like they drug their rifle through the rifle accessory equivalent of "Pep Boys" and everything stuck to it.

For what it's worth...
Justin
 
i do not own a cf wrapped bbl.
BUT
in previous threads on the subject the answer was:
great for 3 shots.
 
There are significant differences between different manufacturers' carbon fiber barrels, in their internal designs. I know a fellow who has a couple of hunting rifles that have CF wrapped barrels that shoot very well, and are very light. Making an apples to apples comparison of custom hunting rifles, his do not take a back seat to any that I know about, and they are amazingly light, especially considering their massive barrel profiles. Other rifles, with barrels by other manufacturers have not performed as well. The only way that we can know how well the best of these barrels would do as part of a short range benchrest rifle will be when some brave manufacturer builds one. I do not look for this to happen, because that is not their market, and if the results got out, showing that they are not quite as good, it would not be an advantage to them. Perhaps they have, and thought the better of advertising the results. We may never know. My friend's barrels were done by an individual who sold his process to a larger company, but retained the right to do a few. I have forgotten the particulars.
 
Personally I feel like the CF isnt offering much in the way of any advantage.. just thought Id start a thread here to see what yall think. Like said, I wouldve thought we'd be seeing them by now in benchrest and the military as well if they were the next big thing like Proof Research claims. Now I have heard the military is looking into making some Cobalt machine gun barrels that are supposed to have pretty awesome barrel life numbers.
 
jbhotrod said:
Personally I feel like the CF isnt offering much in the way of any advantage.. just thought Id start a thread here to see what yall think. Like said, I wouldve thought we'd be seeing them by now in benchrest and the military as well if they were the next big thing like Proof Research claims. Now I have heard the military is looking into making some Cobalt machine gun barrels that are supposed to have pretty awesome barrel life numbers.
Click to expand...

Due to rate of fire conventional materials do not last all that long- then again it is a spray & pray type of weapon any way. Seems to me way back in time they had water jackets on some of them.
 
It is very difficult to shoot offhand with a lightweight barrel. It is like stirring water.
Forgive my old memory, but Bill?? the very good 22 CF shooter had one at the SS several years ago. He said it was hunting accurate, not BR accurate. I believe Bill is a HoF member
 
jbhotrod said:
So with CF wrapped barrels becoming the hot new thing in practical precision shooting, what are yalls thoughts on them? The main point of argument is that Proof CF barrels claims their barrels dissipate heat more quickly and allow the barrel to stay cooler than a barrel of the same diameter. Others(including myself) feel that the CF is only acting as an insulator, trapping the heat inside and giving the illusion its cool since the CF wrap is cool while actually the barrel under the carbon fiber is super hot..??

Check it out(hopefully with an open mind) and lets hear what yall think?:

http://www.scout.com/military/snipe...025254-upgrading-the-rpr-to-a-proof-cf-barrel
Click to expand...

They're a scam.....

Well, OK, maybe not a SCAM, but they lie.....

OK, OK, OK, maybe they don't LIE per se, maybe they're just STUPID........

But in any case, regardless of what the innertube sez regarding "carbon nanotubes," "graphene," and "burgeoning tech" CF as applied to rifle barrels is most definitely an insulator. Ain't NO "new tech" here....

"Carbon Fiber" tech is old as time and very much limited by what it is. The material is quite strong under tension, makes a decent fishpole and is held together by a brutally massive glue commonly called "resin." I've got acres and gallons of the stuff in my shop. And vacuum pullers and weights and sand and rollers and brushes and stuff with which to marry the two products into "carbon fiber" stuff. Two undesirable characteristics are that the resin melts at 250-350F and that the expansion coefficient of CF is far from that of steel. These two items SERIOUSLY impact it's facility when applied to steel.

I'll give another example of two disparate things, tension fiber and glue working together in harmony. Reinforced concrete. Exactly the same concept as "carbon fiber" but with steel as the "tension fiber" and concrete as the "resin" only in this case they share a very similar expansion rate, their "BC's" are nearly identical.

The kicker is that while both combinations work well, reinforced concrete and "carbon fiber" (which is the generic term for carbon fibers in a resin matrix), THEY DO NOT WORK WELL TOGETHER!

Rebar and concrete---good

Resin and carbon strands---good

Carbon and steel---BAD!

Carbon and steel have dissimilar rates of nearly EVERYTHING except deflection/cross section and they mesh like oil and water.

Two of the main barrel wrappers are in my back yard, Loomis and Lamiglass. I've followed them for years. Another big player who shall not be named but is near Greenville SC where I spend some time once looked me right in the eye and stated "you take a barrel and fire it 5 times BLAM-BLAM-BLAM-BLAM-BLAM! and you reach out and touch that barr'l and it ain't even WARM!! There's your PROOF!! You don't NEED no gol'dang scientist nor engineer to tell you NUTTIN'!"

It's hard for me to even REPLY to that class of logic, let alone argue......so I din't......


and I don't.

If you're the type of guy who grew up reading Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, Nat Geo and such as means to acquire knowledge, the guy who believes that someday you'll fly your car to work......possibly an ELECTRIC flycar powered by the free plenitude provided by the wind and the sun and the moon and the rain........then carbon fiber wrapped barrels are for you :)


IF, on the other hand you're like me and take it the other way......you'll end up saying HOley SchLITZ!!! These light little whippy barrels can SHOOT!!!



opinionby







al
 
Holey Schneikie I just went and watched that vid on "Shniper's Heide"........there's ten minutes of my life I'd have better spent rubbing a cheese grater on my face.....


just


WOW!


in-freaking-credible
 
lol... I WARNED YOU

alinwa said:
Holey Schneikie I just went and watched that vid on "Shniper's Heide"........there's ten minutes of my life I'd have better spent rubbing a cheese grater on my face.....


just


WOW!


in-freaking-credible
Click to expand...
 
And then I further abused myself because there's ANOTHER VID!

More braincells dead and gone.

But I did gain something from revisiting this weird world of "you know what I mean" pseudoscience.......This world where saying it with conviction makes it more valid than science.....where looking directly over the camera at the teleprompter gives very SOUL to the presentation.....

This factory tour video mentioned that these self-same self-proclaimed exspurts make in-house stocks. From carbon fiber........ Now here's something for you non-scientific people to ponder, the ones who think "well it's just one guy's opinion against another." The people who make America tick, The Heartbone Of America....

How many people here have walked barefoot onto a metal dock or boat deck or catwalk and thought "ooohhhh this deck is cold!"

How many people will agree that "a wood deck is warmer than a metal deck?"


So I have lots of rifle stocks.

I have STEEL stocks ("Brrrr, Cold!")

I have aluminum stocks, also brrr cold.

I have WOOD stocks... :) .... roasty-toasty WARM!

And fiberglass, still "perty warm"

And kevlar

And plastic

And "carbon fiber" ("OOOhhhh NICE! warm like wood!")


And now for the Fact-Of-The-Day. The REASON metal feels "cold" at room temperature is something called "thermal transfer rate" or "thermal conductivity." Metal FEELS cold because it takes away your heat (ooohhh that characterization just makes my meninges melt) and wood or carbon fiber FEELS warm......because IT DOESN'T!

Nice warm carbon fiber stock BECAUSE IT'S AN INSULATOR!

Here's a link, written at 7th grade level........maybe. It shows in simple terms just how well carbon fiber matches up with metal in transferring thermal energy.



http://www.christinedemerchant.com/carbon_characteristics_heat_conductivity.html
 
I like the way the guy on "Sniper Hide" just nonchalantly hits that plate at 900 YARDS, with a 20 inch barrel 308.

Last time I looked, that's a loooonnnng way.
 
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