Bullet Making

I

Ian_Owen

Member
Several years ago there were some very good threads on Bullet making, one of them stretched to several pages and was started by Stephen Perry with some very relevant information.
The thread met a disastrous end and Wilbur managed to save most of it, I have attached what Wilbur saved

Wilbur also had an article on Benchrest Central where he reached out to a number of bullet makers and got replies from several
This disappeared so I've attached what I had saved

Perhaps others have bullet making information and will contribute to the thread
 

Attachments

  • BR Bullet Making.pdf
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  • BRC Bullet Making.pdf
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Prior to Charlie Hood (Hood Custom Products) making finished cores, I had been approached by several potential suppliers, and advised by them that they could/would supply cores within +/- 0.03 Gr., or a range of 0.06 Gr. - that, "was in their dreams", as all had the decimal misplaced by one, or more places!!:eek: Thus, my stated dislike of outsourced cores in Wilbur's questionnaire (BRC Bullet Making.pdf).

When, about 17-18 years ago already, Bart Sauter advised me to check with Charlie Hood, I was, due to past experience, skeptical of "outsourcing" cores. However, within BR circles, Charlie was (and remains) synonymous with QUALITY. I contacted Charlie and discussed having him make a run of thirty caliber cores, but he didn't have a thirty Cal. squirt die!:oops: Intrepidly, Charlie asked if I'd be willing to supply a die for the test run . . . I had three [Niemi] core-form dies, so, why not - one was mailed to Hood Custom Products and into Charlie's care.

Following a brief interval, Charlie called - there was a "problem": the Niemi die(s) produce convex/arched ends, which were/are not compatible with Charlie's machinery (I believe an ejection issue) - GAAaarn!:oops: Proactively, Charlie asked if I'd consider allowing him to alter the punches (including the internal reciprocating stop/ejection punch!) by grinding the ends to completely remove the convex faces - to render them FLAT!!o_O

That was yours truly's introduction to a innovative GREAT MIND: a problem solver - not a whiner, hand wringer . . . my response was prompt and positive: "do it". That was the beginning of a long and, I hope, mutually beneficial relationship . . . not to mention: that initial lot, and to this day, every lot, of cores supplied by Charlie have displayed a range of <0.1 Gr.:D You'll play hell matching/beating that!;) RG
 
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Randy/ Ian

Isn't there less chance of trapped air if the core has a convex surface, matching the profile of the bottom of the jacket?

Just wondering, I have a lot to learn
 
***As a separate subject, does anyone know of a manufacturer of 224 jackets with 1 inch or more? Just now that I managed to find a carbide die ogive 11 for heavier bullets, J4 stopped supplying them in the longer lengths...😞
 
Liseo said:
Randy/ Ian

Isn't there less chance of trapped air if the core has a convex surface, matching the profile of the bottom of the jacket?

Just wondering, I have a lot to learn
Click to expand...
Liseo, I do not believe so.

My experience/opinion is that domed cores present better flow dynamics, accommodating a "tighter" punch/jacket/die fit, allowing evacuation of air, while minimizing the volume of lead flowing around the core-seat punch prior to achieving peak pressure: the lead must flow outward to equal/exceed the punch diameter, as opposed to being nearly equal before pressure is applied. This, I believe greatly reduces, and usually eliminates lead being pinched off and accumulating on the punch, which can become tiresome.:(

With flat-faced cores, it's better to go with a punch diameter small enough to prevent the core-flaking and eventual build-up on the punch: we're
only talking 0.0005 to 0.001", so, the thickness of the bleed-by would be only 1/2 that and still, should be, relative to the axis, very shallow. Presuming a "proper" amount of lubrication, the annoyance of cored-jackets sticking on the punch during ejection, is indicative that a smaller diameter punch is needed -"wanted".

One key to punch fit and bleed-by is to have the bleed be of uniform thickness and depth/height: a peak on one side is not be desirable - that indicates uneven flow - I do not tolerate that. Then, having said that, I doubt that with a "ball-park" punch fit, blind testing via rail-gun, in a tunnel, we could measure the difference due to the bleed-by mass. This latter, based upon having been fortunate enough to have enjoyed many discussions/lessons with [the late] Allan Bench and his rail-gun experience - a good deal of our anal phobic considerations are, as my departed Dad used to admonish,"lost-in-the-noise"! o_O;)

Still, being anal cannot be over rated - nothing can be too perfect. :D RG
 
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R.G. Robinett said:
Hunter, resurrecting this thread - especially Wilbur's appropriately timed astute comments - is terrific! The pics bring the comments to life and
bolster the axiom: "picture is worth a thousand words". Thank you!!:D

It appears that the linked thread is still, "HOT" - I am tempted to go back and LIKE all of Wilbur's & George Ulrich's posts. RG
Click to expand...
RG, thank you for your kind words, and I say, GO FOR IT regarding the LIKE{s} — Wilbur & George posted good stuff on the forum.
 
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Hunter, thanks for posting the link to that thread it was/is a good thread to read, full of information, for a beginning bullet maker. A number of those that posted in that thread are no longer with us to share any more information.

Randy, you mentored the person I bought my dies from.
 
R.G. Robinett said:
Prior to Charlie Hood (Hood Custom Products) making finished cores, I had been approached by several potential suppliers, and advised by them that they could/would supply cores within +/- 0.03 Gr., or a range of 0.06 Gr. - that, "was in their dreams", as all had the decimal misplaced by one, or more places!!:eek: Thus, my stated dislike of outsourced cores in Wilbur's questionnaire (BRC Bullet Making.pdf).

When, about 17-18 years ago already, Bart Sauter advised me to check with Charlie Hood, I was, due to past experience, skeptical of "outsourcing" cores. However, within BR circles, Charlie was (and remains) synonymous with QUALITY. I contacted Charlie and discussed having him make a run of thirty caliber cores, but he didn't have a thirty Cal. squirt die!:oops: Intrepidly, Charlie asked if I'd be willing to supply a die for the test run . . . I had three [Niemi] core-form dies, so, why not - one was mailed to Hood Custom Products and into Charlie's care.

Following a brief interval, Charlie called - there was a "problem": the Niemi die(s) produce convex/arched ends, which were/are not compatible with Charlie's machinery (I believe an ejection issue) - GAAaarn!:oops: Proactively, Charlie asked if I'd consider allowing him to alter the punches (including the internal reciprocating stop/ejection punch!) by grinding the ends to completely remove the concave faces - to render them FLAT!!o_O

That was yours truly's introduction to a innovative GREAT MIND: a problem solver - not a whiner, hand wringer . . . my response was prompt and positive: "do it". That was the beginning of a long and, I hope, mutually beneficial relationship . . . not to mention: that initial lot, and to this day, every lot, of cores supplied by Charlie have displayed a range of <0.1 Gr.:D You'll play hell matching/beating that!;) RG
Click to expand...
Randy, fabulous information thank you for sharing.
I've never met Charlie but he did come up with, and produced, some very good high quality Benchrest equipment, the Hood press, cleaning cradle and the Hood bullet puller. I've owned them all and the press is still sought after today.
I have to admit I did plagiarize the cleaning cradle idea and built a double cradle to hold my wife's and my rifles.
 
R.G. Robinett said:
Liseo, I do not believe so.

My experience/opinion is that domed cores present better flow dynamics, accommodating a "tighter" punch/jacket/die fit, allowing evacuation of air, while minimizing the volume of lead flowing around the core-seat punch prior to achieving peak pressure: the lead must flow outward to equal/exceed the punch diameter, as opposed to being nearly equal before pressure is applied. This, I believe greatly reduces, and usually eliminates lead being pinched off and accumulating on the punch, which can become tiresome.:(

With flat-faced cores, it's better to go with a punch diameter small enough to prevent the core-flaking and eventual build-up on the punch: we're
only talking 0.0005 to 0.001", so, the thickness of the bleed-by would be only 1/2 that and still, should be, relative to the axis, very shallow. Presuming a "proper" amount of lubrication, the annoyance of cored-jackets sticking on the punch during ejection, is indicative that a smaller diameter punch is needed -"wanted".

One key to punch fit and bleed-by is to have the bleed be of uniform thickness and depth/height: a peak on one side is not be desirable - that indicates uneven flow - I do not tolerate that. Then, having said that, I doubt that with a "ball-park" punch fit, blind testing via rail-gun, in a tunnel, we could measure the difference due to the bleed-by mass. This latter, based upon having been fortunate enough to have enjoyed many discussions/lessons with [the late] Allan Bench and his rail-gun experience - a good deal of our anal phobic considerations are, as my departed Dad used to admonish,"lost-in-the-noise"! o_O;)

Still, being anal cannot be over rated - nothing can be too perfect. :D RG
Click to expand...

Your experience is Gold.
And I do my best to make good use of it.

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Thanks for sharing.
Oliver.
 
RG

You mentioned Allen Bench in a post here. I knew him well, he was one of my mentors in my early years. He was generous to a fault, gave me a Pindell 30 cal point up die that makes very nice bullets, a Pat McMillan 22 barrel that had polygon rifling that shoots quite well, and a partially finished Weber UNL receiver. He is missed by all the "old " BR shooter here in the NW.

On another post I mentioned I had a lot of .750" J-4 6mm jackets. I finally, last week, got to making bullets on them. I had the most pleasant experience making them, I hit an absolute perfect core seat punch/core weight combination such that there was almost no lead flash around the punch, no shaving of copper off the jacket wall, and no sticking of the jacket on the punch. Can't recall I every have made a batch of bullets where that occurred. Just plain luck!

FWIW
Steve Kostanich
 
Steve Kostanich said:
RG

You mentioned Allen Bench in a post here. I knew him well, he was one of my mentors in my early years. He was generous to a fault, gave me a Pindell 30 cal point up die that makes very nice bullets, a Pat McMillan 22 barrel that had polygon rifling that shoots quite well, and a partially finished Weber UNL receiver. He is missed by all the "old " BR shooter here in the NW.

On another post I mentioned I had a lot of .750" J-4 6mm jackets. I finally, last week, got to making bullets on them. I had the most pleasant experience making them, I hit an absolute perfect core seat punch/core weight combination such that there was almost no lead flash around the punch, no shaving of copper off the jacket wall, and no sticking of the jacket on the punch. Can't recall I every have made a batch of bullets where that occurred. Just plain luck!

FWIW
Steve Kostanich
Click to expand...
Steve, as I hope it was clear that, for me, Allen was a very good mentor - unusually capable of constructive criticism - a GREAT resource. As you are well aware, he was in on a LOT of the ground floor testing of the 6PPC - especially the pressure testing.

I can relate to your experience - especially, with flat-faced cores, that perfect punch/jacket/die fit is not easily attained - it is common with 'domed'/convex faced cores. I'm betting those .750 inchers will make you smile! :D

Later today, unless the icy roads interfere, the Fed-X driver should drop-off a NOSTALGIC and valuable package from Dave Tooley, containing [the late] Jeff Fowler's set of .25 Caliber bullets making dies - Thank You, Dave! :cool: I don't yet know who made them, but likely, it was either Clarence, or, David Detsch . . . one certainty - using them, Jeff made GREAT bullets! I also own two of Clarence's personal .25 Cal. point dies, which Dave was kind enough to sell me a few years ago - Clarence, like yours truly, was a .25 Cal. fanatic! o_O I am excited to handle this set of dies and determine who made them! :D RG
 
RG
The first rifle I ever build was a 25-06! Didn't" know a thing about BR shooting back then, it weighed 14 lbs. and was fairly accurate, or so I thought!!. For some reason I just wanted a 25 cal. Eventually found out about BR shooting, and was hooked.

On your 25 project, can you get 25 cal. jacket without having to buy cases of them?. The late Manley Oakley made his own 25 cal bullet dies that made bullets that shot quite well. He was shooting a 25BR. Considering he had only an old Shelden lathe, those die came out OK. No Monarch 10EE. Don't remember what jacket he was using, but I think the bullets weighed 87gr. Where those dies are now I have no idea.

RG I don't know if you knew that Allen B. made button rifled barrels.They were mainly for his own use. He just wanted to make something that was better than what was in common use. I think the equipment eventually ended up with Denny Andrews when he stated Snake River Barrels

Steve Kostanich
 
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Steve Kostanich said:
RG
The first rifle I ever build was a 25-06! Didn't" know a thing about BR shooting back then, it weighed 14 lbs. and was fairly accurate, or so I thought!!. For some reason I just wanted a 25 cal. Eventually found out about BR shooting, and was hooked.

On your 25 project, can you get 25 cal. jacket without having to buy cases of them?. The late Manley Oakley made his own 25 cal bullet dies that made bullets that shot quite well. He was shooting a 25BR. Considering he had only an old Shelden lathe, those die came out OK. No Monarch 10EE. Don't remember what jacket he was using, but I think the bullets weighed 87gr. Where those dies are now I have no idea.

RG I don't know if you knew that Allen B. made button rifled barrels.They were mainly for his own use. He just wanted to make something that was better than what was in common use. I think the equipment eventually ended up with Denny Andrews when he stated Snake River Barrels

Steve Kostanich
Click to expand...
Thank you, dwconder - Dave confirmed this also. The dies were delivered and look remarkably similar to all of my W.B. Niemi dies.

It required a tap on the skull for me to recall that Bob Siminson was involved in a parachuting accident, which pretty well wrecked him - I had forgotten that. :(

25/06 was a cool project for what had to have been a era ago, Steve! :D Regarding 25 Cal. jackets, I have a good supply of the .940", which I use for 88 Gr. FB & BT - the demand for custom .25 Cal. bullets dictates that, likely, I have, "a life-time supply" of the short jackets. For bullets based upon the .940" jacket, barrel twist, for top precision, should be no slower than 1:12".

My 110 Gr. BT were based upon the 1.125" J4, were/are quite capable: via a Bartlein 1:9" twist, 25x47 Lapua (the LAPUA SAAMI Spec, being pretty much a clone of the original 30x47 HBR, but necked-down to 6.5/.264), I was able to win a pair of yardages and a Grand Agg at NBRSA Hunter National Championships. The use of inadequate twist rate(s) is what killed off the 25 Cal. in point-blank BR. For .25 Cal. bullets based on the 1.125" jacket, 1:10" twist is "ok" . . . 1:9" is where the magic appears.

When Jeff and others began making the 75 Gr. bullets, using the shortest J4 jacket offering, the 1:14" twist was, "ok", then, J4 (SpiveCo) dropped the two shortest lengths and all of the makes continued making the 75-80 Gr. weights, using the LONG(er) jackets, for which the 14" twisted barrels were, now, well short of adequate . . . the BR community collectively pronounced, "the 25 Cal.jackets are no good" . . . and "that was that".

For the last several years, once the 1.125" were removed from the J4 jacket list, for my own use, I resorted to drawing 6.5 jacket down to .25, and pinch-trim to [desired] length(s) to make 100 - 138 Gr. weights. I don't make these for everyone - most people think custom bullet makers are getting rich without charging for THAT additional labor! Even now that Capsone is making .25 Cal LONG/Heavy bullets, the jackets have been unobtainable.

I have and use .25 Copperhead (.25/222Rem. Mag); .25BR; .250/3000 Savage; 250Ack. Imp.; 25x47 Lapua; 257 Ack. Imp.; .25/300WSM. For mule deer, the .257Ack. Imp is my favorite - for pure precision, it's tough to best a 25x47 capacity cartridge with 100-110 Gr. bullets. RG
 
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RG

You truly are a 25 cal guru. I have access to a 250 Ack. Imp. and 257 Robt. Imp. reamers, but have never been interested in fooling with them due to the type bullets available. Actually have a 25-06 Ack. reamer too. I think you are right about the 257 Robt. Ack being the best 25. Wont it everything the 25-06 Ack.will do with less powder?

Steve
 
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