Building a 6br for 200 yd varmint matches... need advice...

T

thelongshot

Guest
I have competed with all stock rifles in the past and have had good luck with 110s and LRPVs.

I am moving into the open class and thus I need to build a rifle. I have settled on a Savage PTA for its economy for the accuracy. I am looking for opinions on the barrel length, twist, brand, and stock for this new project. One thing we all know is... benchrest shooters have opinions. Another extra... I have heard from some shooters its best to drop the Savage Barrel nut because of the torque it adds to the barrel. Any truth to that?
 
Just to make sure you're in the right place, because "open" class in short-range group benchrest usually means "unlimited." The other classes are "Heavy Varmint," "Light Varmint," and "Sporter," with those names having no current significance to any other type of shooting.

As far as I know, no one is using a Savage action for any of these.

In short range score shooting, the formal classes are "Hunter," "Varmint Hunter," and "Varmint for Score" -- no "open" class (and no Savage actions that I know of).

600 and 1,000 yard benchrest use "Light Gun" and "Heavy Gun" -- again, no open class. You will find some Savage actions here, though.
 
What I am after is a rifle that can fit the quals for Heavy Varmint... I was shooting the equivalent of a Varmint Hunter in the past and would like to have a gun that quals for IBS shoots in HV when I want to go to more than club shoots.

Open Class

1. Must be thirty (.30) caliber or smaller.

2. Must be fired manually, without the aid of a mechanical or electrical device.

3. Can not be what is commonly known as a “Rail Gun”.

4. Must be carried to the firing line fully assembled.

5. No limitations on optics.

6. Must weigh less than twenty-five (25) pounds.
 
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Edit:

Just saw the IBS part of your post. First of all, the heavy rifle allowed in IBS score shooting cannot weigh over 13.5 pounds. The class is called "VFS" for Varmint For Score.

I don't believe it is limited to .30 caliber or less.

The full set of rules can be found here:

http://internationalbenchrest.com/index.php

I've been to a few IBS sanctioned score matches, and a whole bunch of NBRSA group matches. I have never seen a Savage action used. There has been some discussion on this board, the general consensus being they are too heavy, aside from concerns about their precision.

I'd recommend you go to a sanctioned match before laying out any hard-earned money.
 
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Sounds like there is some confusion as to what you are wanting to build.

This is what the IBS rule book says constitutes a Heavy Varmint rifle.

Heavy Varmint Rifle Any rifle having a safe manually operated firing mechanism, weighing not more than 13 1/2 pounds inclusive of sight, with a stock having a flat or convex forearm and total stock width not more than 3", having a toe formed by a straight line drawn from the toe of a substantially vertical butt with a 13 1/4 inch pull starting at a point at least 4 inches below the axis of the bore and extending forward to the centerline of the barrel at a point no more than 18 inches forward of the bolt face a barrel not less than 18 inches long, a diameter at and not more than 5 inches ahead of the bolt face of not more than 1.250 inches and a diameter at any point between the muzzle and 5 inches in front of the bolt face not greater than would be defined by a straight taper between such point 5 inches in front of the bolt face at 1.250 inches diameter and the muzzle at .9 inch diameter at 29 inches. The barrel may be attached to the receiver, bedding blocks or sleeve or combination thereof for a distance of no more than four (4) inches, measured from the face of the bolt. The overall length of the receiver, bedding block or sleeve or combination thereof not to exceed 14". (Maximum dimensions shall not include normal scope blocks or sight bases.) Epoxy or equivalent plastic bedding compound without parting compound, of the bottom 180 degree of any portion of the barreled action on Varmint class rifles is permitted. Remington 40XB stocks, as produced, may be used without alteration, provided there is no interaction between fore-end and sand bag that would constitute a guiding means. Electric triggers are allowed. No additions or attachments shall be added to the barrel, with the exception of a scope shade (such as those that have been used in competition over the history of the IBS), which are attached to the barrel by the means of tape, Velcro, or glue, or a tuner as described in a) except as below.
a)
Use of an attached barrel tuner shall be allowed, with the following restrictions:
(i)
The tuner must be securely attached to the barrel (not made integral to the barrel).
(ii)
The tuner cannot have venting ports.
(iii)
The rifle must not exceed the weight as described herein.
(iv)
Adjusting the tuner during a match can only be accomplished while remaining seated, and during a match can only be accomplished while remaining seated, and after removing the bolt from the action.
(v)
The tuner is exempt from the barrel diameter restrictions (may be any diameter and length), but the barrel itself must remain within the dimensions as stated in the current rules. Failure to adhere to restriction #iv above will result in the immediate disqualification of the competitor from the aggregate in which he or she is competing at the time of the violation.
(vi)
It is the intent of this rule change to allow the use of a tuner in all Group LV and HV, Score VFS, LV and HV hunter, Varmint Hunter rifles. This rule change does not affect the rules as they pertain to 1000 yd, and 600 yard competition/classes.
b)
The use of muzzle brakes and/or venting or porting of barrels that redirects powder gas flow from following the direct line of the rifle bore shall not be allowed.
 
Charles E said:
Edit:

Just saw the IBS part of your post. First of all, the heavy rifle allowed in IBS score shooting cannot weigh over 13.5 pounds. The class is called "VFS" for Varmint For Score.

I don't believe it is limited to .30 caliber or less.

The full set of rules can be found here:

http://internationalbenchrest.com/index.php

I've been to a few IBS sanctioned score matches, and a whole bunch of NBRSA group matches. I have never seen a Savage action used. There has been some discussion on this board, the general consensus being they are too heavy, aside from concerns about their precision.

I'd recommend you go to a sanctioned match before laying out any hard-earned money.
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I am probably not asking a clear question... I would like to qualify for the HV class and the rules I posted the first time around so that I can compete in several shoots without having a quiver of rifles. So you don't think I can meet the 13.5 lb class with a Savage Action? What is the precision problem with the Savage PTA? I have heard the trigger criticism of the Accutrigger, but if the guys are setting records with the Savage PTA in the 600 yd matches, why not 200 yd?
 
The fact that no one uses a Savage is of course not proof it isn't viable. But it is suggestive. And the initial question you asked about a barrel nut adding torque, reporting "what some guys said" makes no sense to me. I can think of issues with a barrel nut, and also ways to address them. I happen to use something like that on my 80-pound, tensioned-barrel 1,000 yard rifle. As with all systems, there are pluses and minuses, and ways to maximize the plus side of things.

Multipurpose competition rifles are used by people competing in short-range benchrest. But the difference in weight there is 2 pounds, 10.5 and 13.5 pounds. The greater the difference allowed by the rules -- such as almost double the weight in your case -- usually puts the "lesser" rifle at a disadvantage. If the level of competition is high, any significant disadvantage cannot be overcome.

I stand by the original suggestion. Go to a registered match. Talk to people who shoot what you want to begin shooting. See the level of precision they require. Fair chance someone will lend you a rifle.

As far as that goes, take your rifle and see if they'll let you shoot along side them. It won't count for the match, but you'll get a good idea of how you and your current rifle stack up in that kind of competition.

I can say without any reservations that more than one person has wasted thousands of dollars building a rifle they though would compete, only to later find out it would not. Your choice.
 
Longshot, you are getting some good advice here, go to a match or 2 and try things "before" spending money on something you think might work. No one is saying you can't make a savage work but it might not be any cheaper than buying something best suited to competition. The savage makes for excellent factory class rifles and quite a few are definitely shooters.
 
Yes. BTW, there is a huge difference between Factory Class and a VFS rifles. I sometimes shoot factory class. Last match I did (at 200 yards), I shot a 235, with a Savage 110 in .223 Remington. That was good for second place. Third place was a 230 score.

The guy who won Factory Class shot a 244-0X, with a target-grade Savage, shooting 6BR, after carefully working up the loads. He beat me by a lot, a huge amount, and at least some of that was due to a superior rifle.

Had he been shooting in the VFS class that day, he would have placed dead last. I believe a 247 was the worst score shot in VFS.

* * *

You mentioned 1,000 yard successes with a Savage. I've shot 1,000 yard BR since 1996. There are a lot of new 1K ranges, with the attendant new 1K shooters. Some crazy stuff gets wins. At big matches, like the Nationals, occasionally a Savage actioned rifle will win. I remember one guy at the Pella, Iowa nationals. He did well, maybe won one category at the nationals the year before as well. His Savage was barrel blocked. Custom barrel fitted by a good smith. With the scope on the block, action floating. Etc. In short, the action was a breech block, nothing more. 17 pounds allowed, no stock rules, no barrel block rules -- all a lot different than what is allowed in VFS point-blank matches.

I do have a barrel-blocked VFS rifle, using the lightest BAT action made at that time. By the rules, the block can only extend 4 inches in front of the BOLTFACE -- i.e. only about 3 inches of barrel, since the tenon is about an inch. Very different than the 1K rules; the component "barrel block" is the same, but the whole engineering approach is different.

Etc.

Edited for clarity (I hope)
 
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Ok, so you talked me out of it. So what match up would you suggest, starting with the action. What is a good set up for a HV 6br? Twist rate, barrel length etc.
 
Really Simple. Just build it the same way you would a 6PPC, except get an action with a 308 bolt face. For a 6BR, any of the popular actions will do. More times than not, it comes down to availability.

Get a 13.5 or 14 twist barrel. I have a 6BR reamer that has a .269 neck and a .060 freebore., you take off just enough to clean them up.

Later, if you want to go to a 30BR, it's simply a matter of changing the barrel.

If you are set on building a true HV, (13.5 LBS), have a stock made with extra material whwere it counts. My HV 30BR is built on a Robertson BRX that I specifically ordered at 35 ounces, with extra layers of what ever that is he makes them out of.

Keep in mind, this is for 100-200 yard Benchrest, if you get the long range bug, an 8 twist and big long VLDS in a 6BR is the ticket..........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
...Keep in mind, this is for 100-200 yard Benchrest, if you get the long range bug, an 8 twist and big long VLDS in a 6BR is the ticket..........jackie
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And in the long range rifles with longer barrels, there are better stocks to use to get the rifle to balance correctly than the stocks normally used in short range benchrest. If you put a 1000 yard taper barrel on a short range benchrest stock and put it in a Sinclair cleaning cradle, the extra weight of the barrel will pull the rifle out of the cradle. A MBR or Shehane tracker will spread the weight out farther and the rifle will stay on the cradle. Two different shooting disciplines, two different rifles for each. My first 100/200 yard benchrest rifle was a trued 700 that Hart Rifle sleeved and barreled, glued into a McMillan LV stock. It was competitive and probably still would be, but I went the way of everyone else and built a replacement for it with a custom action. My first rifle cost $400 with me supplying the action, $600 with the Leupold 36X scope. The $400 will barely cover the cost of the barrel now.
 
I tend to agree with Mike, but you *could* plan far ahead and get something to work. With a NBRSA or IBS LG, (600 and 1,000 yards) you are allowed 17 pounds. That allows a removable weight to be added to the butt to rebalance the rifle. I have a point-blank true HV stock with additional (removable) weight added to balance a longer barrel, and it works fine. It is three pounds in PB configuration, and 4.5 pounds in long-range configuration. In the 3-pound mode, the extra weigh is distributed more evenly in the stock. The extra (removable) weight for long barrels is all in the butt, at the top.

I don't shoot a 6BR or it's variants (yet), but R.G. Robinett feels there isn't all than much gained with a barrel over 26 inches.

What's lost? Well, you do give up 2 to 4 inches of inches of barrel, probably less than 100 fps. Probably not too important, but it is there. You will not get to put the front rest as far out on the stock with a shorter forearm, so you'd be relying on extra weight in the butt to balance. Probably do-able, works for me. Having said that, my two usual long-range light guns are stocked with a Tooley MBR and a sort-of-Shehane, both dedicated long range stocks

Here is column B. I don't know the barrel life of a 6MM BR shooting 105s, but there is one. I figure 2,000 rounds on my 1,000 yard 30s. 30's are forgiving. The short-range BR guys with a 6PPC (smaller than a 6BR) figure about 1,000 to 2,000 rounds, depending on the individual barrel, and the level of competition. A national- or world-level competition barrel often has a life of about 250 rounds (so I'm told).

If you shoot it at everything in sight, it won't last that many seasons before you wear out the barrel. Just one more reason not to compromise too much, and built individual rifles for specific purposes.
 
Thanks to all your guys' advice. Saved me money and I ended up taking P1ZombieKiller's advice and bought a 30BR from Ronnie Long. The wait is killing me... The mail couldn't move any faster now. Ronnie was a lot of help with some tips for the gun.
 
thelongshot said:
Thanks to all your guys' advice. Saved me money and I ended up taking P1ZombieKiller's advice and bought a 30BR from Ronnie Long. The wait is killing me... The mail couldn't move any faster now. Ronnie was a lot of help with some tips for the gun.
Click to expand...

You will not regret that decision. His guns shoot fantastic. Now... go buy you some H4198, some 112-116 grain bullets from either Ronnie Cheek or Jon Conley, some FED 205m or Wolf SMR primers, and get ready for the best shooting you have ever done.

Oh yeah, and the rest and bag of your choice.
 
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