Bizzare High Speed Recoil footage

Vern

Vern

Morethan1waytoskinacat
I was just watching Midway USA's Gun Stories on Outdoor Chanel.
It is episode number 4. At about the 20 minute mark (+-1 min.) there is a high speed clip of a guy shooting a Win. 94 in the prone position at about a 30 degree right frontal position.
You can see the bullet leave the leave the barrel, you can see it travel out of visual range 30'+ and then 1-2 secs of frame time later you see the recoil begin, distinctly.
I watched it several times (dvr) thinking I was seeing it wrong but nope.
I thought it was interesting because of how many view recoil as happening while the bullet is still in the barrel. And YES it is happening but in at least this particular case only to the smallest visual degree.
Watch it for yourself and see what I mean.
You might be able to view it on the outdoorchanel.com website.
 
I guess this is why brakes and other forms of recoil management work as well as they do; it will be interesting to see what advances are over the horizon and still remain, practically, 'man portable'.
 
Well Vern, this is very interesting and maybe you have started a real thread burner here. So all, what do you all think made the recoil show up when the bullet is that far down range? May I suggest that the backward thrust (george's jet engine) can not match the speed of the forward explosion and bullet leaving the barrel, thus the bullet is way past the barrel before the slower moving recoil passes back through the gun. I'm just saying, it's just a thought. Chime in all....
Dave T
 
it so nice to see the proper use of the" competition benchrest only" forum....
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
thought that was why this was put in place to keep the bs out...

mike in co
 
My 6PPC has a barely legal toe angle (It is a SG&Y Millennium, by Six.) , and the Visalia range is slightly down hill. If one does not pay close attention to how the rifle is set up, in the bags, and how it is balanced, the butt stock can pop out of the rear bag ears some of the time, when shooting free recoil. I used to worry about that, until I noticed that there was never a difference on the target. Also, when I have put about 5 1/2 oz on the muzzle, and removed a similar amount from the front 2/3 of the barrel, I expected to have a greater tendency with the stock popping out of the rear bag ears. I did not, which leads me to believe that the increase in polar momentum was the reason, given that the static balance was slightly degraded from where it had been before the barrels were stepped and tuners added. From all of this, I have come to believe that in addition to looking at static balance, there are some additional factors that come into play when the rifle is fired, and it is this "dynamic balance" that is the ultimate goal. Of course I owe all of this to Harold Vaughn, who turned on the light.
 
In competition we talk about all the aspects of gun handling, rests, gun movement in the bags, shooting free recoil and where we do and dont touch the gun and so forth. I thought it would be interesting to be able to put into perspective the recoil vs actual bullet location in a visible timeline. I have asked before on another post as to how far the gun moves by the time the bullet actually leaves the barrel.
While this is not a bench gun the basic physics are similar.
 
Vern,
I found your information very interesting and thought provoking. So much so that I tried my best to see if I could locate the footage on line....I am sorry to say, without success. I guess that the point of my post was that things don't always work the way we imagine they do. It is not that often that I see new information, such as your post provided. Thanks
 
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I will endeavor to find a link to the video online. It is sometimes a week or so before it becomes available online after airing on TV.
I have looked for a replay on TV but they are going to be airing episode 5 and no replay at this point.
 
Boyd Allen said:
...the butt stock can pop out of the rear bag ears some of the time, when shooting free recoil. I used to worry about that, until I noticed that there was never a difference on the target. Also, when I have put about 5 1/2 oz on the muzzle, and removed a similar amount from the front 2/3 of the barrel, I expected to have a greater tendency with the stock popping out of the rear bag ears. I did not, which leads me to believe that the increase in polar momentum was the reason, given that the static balance was slightly degraded from where it had been before the barrels were stepped and tuners added. From all of this, I have come to believe that in addition to looking at static balance, there are some additional factors that come into play when the rifle is fired, and it is this "dynamic balance" that is the ultimate goal. ...
Click to expand...

Boyd,
You have increased the polar inertia of the gun by shifting weight forward, but the reason the butt pops out of the rear bag is not so clear. If the polar inertia were very high, then the gun would recoil straight back, and the butt would lose contact with the bag simply because of the angle on the butt. Because you didn't see an increase in the problem when you modified the barrel, this probably isn't the explanation. On the other hand, with low polar inertia, the butt is forced into the bag and then recoils upward due the the elastic energy stored in the stock (think of torquing the base of a diving board with its tip on your rear bag). It could be the latter that explains what your stock is doing. Yes, "dynamic balance" is a good description.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Boyd now that yesterday's match is over I can say this.
My gun used to pop up in the rear bag. They just took it and cut off either 2 or 3 inches I dont remember.
And stuck it into the but of the gun.
Now it rides fine.
Problem was it was out of balance.... barrel heavy. Rode the bags just fine yesterday, shot better too.
 
Thanks guys. I should have mentioned that some time back I shortened my barrels by an inch to an inch and a half. It did seem to help. As to the stock design, I think that the rifle tends to recoil in line with the bore, and shooting down hill (slightly) means that the line of recoil is up towards the back, and as the rifle recoils the toe angle tends to unload the rear bag, not load it. The shallow straight, and light style of stock moves the center of mass up to the point that I am not sure that it is not a little above the bore. I have thought about removing the butt and weight system and taping a weight along the bottom of the butt stock to try lowering the center of mass, so that rotation during firing would be more down at the back.
 
There was a secondary issue with mine and that was that it was not true on the forearm.
I was told by several people that the guy who makes them sold and still sells the originals that are not true and square...knowingly.
The guy who cut the barrel also trued up the forearm.
We knew it was double tapered. What we didnt know was that it was all on one side.
Thats fixed too now.
Does not have much to do with recoil but any way.
 
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