Bill Calfee - Montezuma Is a Keeper

B

Bob Collins

Guest
I shot Montezuma with the new cut rifle barrel on it Saturday (6-26-10) at Kettlefoot in its first match. I had tuned it in South GA when it came in on a Monday – it was 100 degrees with a heat index running from 110 to 118 degrees with a water content of 28.58 grams per meter – I have never seen it that high, the week before it was 28.0 grams in Jacksonville. I tuned it my standard method, testing the action screws, and then starting at zero and going out in hundreds to 500, then focusing in on the two best spots, 200 and 300. I started on the 300 area and found it was the best around 350, but it had droppers, so I went to 200 and tuned in this area and it shot good, but I still had an occasional dropper. I tuned two other rifles being careful not to get the gun too hot, buy switching out guns to cool and using my cleaning rod as a heat sink. One was a position rifle that shoots at 100 yards and it would shoot a 3 shot group of .3 – it was the first time I ever used mirage and that’s a new story, very interesting.
The following Friday I took it to Wilkesboro, NC and shot Montezuma, they were talking about how hot it was 92 degrees with 15 gram water content – Jim and I just laughed about it because it was so cool to us after at 100 plus we left, the mountains were cool to us. Montezuma would not shoot at the 200 area, but was much better at the 350 area, but it had droppers again, since I came up in my little Prius, I forgot to bring my weights, so I had to put it down and shoot Corvette, Jim’s 17 twist CSM cut rifle barrel out shot Corvette again.
Back tuning again in S GA on Monday, hot again with a water level of 27.58 grams, when the water vapor is that high you sweat just sitting in the shade, does not evaporate off your clothing or skin – you better be drinking lots of water. I put the tuner back to 100 and put 1ounce of weight on and Montezuma came to life. It only took a few minutes and it was a humming with no droppers.
Fridays trip to Kettlefoot. Mike and I arrived around 8:00 PM, to be met by Mr. Pepper, to get the barrel diagramed, both Jim and Al said it was “perfect”, and Bill Calfee must have lapped it. Then to the Truman’s famed chicken house, it shot great, I moved the tuner out 3 clicks from where I set it in S GA – I had gone from 230 feet to around 1200 feet in altitude and it was “cool”.
Saturday morning, my front rest was still giving me a fit, my Sporter scores prove that, but with the heavy gun things settle down.
Scores in 10.5# and 13.5#
250 -20X- 5 FM
248-16X- 4 FM switch out for a minus 2
247-15X- 11FM
248- 12X – 10 FM
Between the last two targets I moved the tuner in 1 click in, and I’ll admit I was shooting for X’s, and it cost me, but I never took a shot holding outside the 10 ring.
The wind was what I called normal for Kettlefoot, flags showing a “slider wind” and the “snake” was coming down the mountain backstop much of the time. I feel I was about a second behind on the last two targets, but Montezuma shot much better than I did the driver.
I believe that all new barrels will have a tuner “adjustment” after a few bricks of ammo, it’s being broken in. Bill, I know Montezuma’s setting is close, but not perfect yet, but when it is, ” hold on to your hat”!
There were several more test going on than a 16 twist CMS verses a 17 twist, Mike, Mr. Pepper, and several other shooters are helping test several new things, but I tried to keep Montezuma’s test down to just the tuner. At Truman’s Chicken House, we tested several new Lots of ammo, Montezuma shot them all, but I had to do minor tuner adjustments except on one Lot which had to go out a full revolution – more on this testing later.
Thanks to the Kettlefoot crew for showing Mike and me a great weekend, Wallace for helping with the front rest, Truman, Al, and Jim Pepper for the help with the testing time, Cliff for a great match, and to my true friend Bill Calfee for his artistic ability with a barrel he liked and disliked equally (odd grove number). This is being addressed now, so hold on, you will be getting several new numbers soon.
Next weekend’s testing will be much more interesting, several new parameters will be added, both the 16 and 17 twist CSM’s will be there, plus new Lots of ammo will be tested.
Bob Collins
 
Water Content

A very interesting post and in my quest for knowledge on humidity it has me asking a couple of questions. I noticed your reference to: Water content expressed in grams per meter; I’m more used to reading about atmospheric water content expressed using measures such as relative humidity, absolute humidity, dew point temperature along with a few others and I was curious as to why the grams per meter. My second question and, sorry for my lack of knowledge but, are Rimfire cases not for all practical purposes airtight (or at best diffusion controlled) making them predominately temperature sensitive. Just wondering what you were measuring the water contrasts against?

Ken
 
I think there is some confusion about water vapor in the air when Collins was shooting. I would never say he is making an error since he may be a very good benchrest shooter and I'm not! However I'm going to assume his units of grams per meter should be grams per cubic meter. Now his statement that 28.58 grams is a very high number is also perplexing. The weight of water in very dry air, like 100f and 10% relative humidity, would be on the order of 60+ gram per cubic meter. Every body wants to be a scientist or engineer!
 
Next question: What's with the CSM or CMS? (It was both ways in the original post) Isn't this barrel a Rock Creek barrel? I couldn't find anything on CSM or CMS barrels on a google search.

I know Gordon Eck has had great success lately with the Rock Creek barrels that he has put on.
 
I think there is some confusion about water vapor in the air when Collins was shooting. I would never say he is making an error since he may be a very good benchrest shooter and I'm not! However I'm going to assume his units of grams per meter should be grams per cubic meter. Now his statement that 28.58 grams is a very high number is also perplexing. The weight of water in very dry air, like 100f and 10% relative humidity, would be on the order of 60+ gram per cubic meter. Every body wants to be a scientist or engineer!

pacecil,

Maybe this will help, or you can put a search on and it will help explain it. Absolute humidity is expressed in grams of water per cubic meter – I just used meter because my computer will not subset the 3 over the meter (m3). But I think you will see quickly your example was wrong.
Bob Collins
PS are you a scientist or engineer?

Relative and Absolute Humidity

How to calculate relative humidity: the great mystery revealed!

The ability of the air to hold (and absorb) moisture depends on the air temperature. Hot air can hold much more moisture than cold air. The air has a certain moisture holding capacity that depends entirely on its temperature. Note that any part of the capacity may be used at any time. (The one gallon bottle has a capacity of one gallon. The actual amount of water in the jug may range from none to full.) The chart below is the maximum moisture that the air can hold at various temperatures. The moisture is measured in grams of water per cubic meter (g/m3).

Air Temperature Saturation value
(Moisture Holding Capacity)

°F °C g/m3
23 -5 3.3
32 0 4.8
41 5 6.8
50 10 9.4
59 15 12.8
68 20 17.3
77 25 23.0
86 30 30.4
95 35 39.6
104 40 51.1


Note that a temperature increase of 5 degrees at warm temperatures results in a dramatic increase in the moisture holding capacity; much more so than at cold temps.

Relative humidity is the amount of moisture in the air. It is relative to the air temperature.

Rut = (absolute humidity/saturation valuet) x 100
 
These numbers represent the highest per cubic meter reading you can have ...SO at 100 f and 10% humidity you can only have 5.1 grams of water per cubic meter

10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100% Humidity
85 F 3.0 6.1 9.1 12.1 15.2 18.2 21.3 24.3 27.3 30.4 grams per cubic meter

100 F 5.1 10.2 15.3 20.5 25.6 30.7 35.8 40.9 46.0 51.1

You dont have to be a rocket scientist
 
Or even literate but that has never stopped Cecil before.
 
Or even literate but that has never stopped Cecil before.


That's the issue .....No scientist here just an easy google search. People wonder why it's hard to get new shooters into this me being one. Geez people can't post without being attacked or some troll putting in his two cents when he knows NADA.......just sayin.....I come here to learn if I wanted a soap opera I would watch TV during the day. Every person I have met a match has been willing to help and share stuff but on here the internet commandos make me wonder

Jim
 
Mr. Collins

I’m neither of those two professions but I do have a basic understanding of Temperature. Air Pressure and Humidity and their connection to Nitrocellulose. I was just curious as to what you were looking at and why?

Ken
 
How about dewpoint? Isn't that the actual measurement of water in the gas form in the air.....hence a dewpoint of say 68 degrees F (that's degrees in Fairenheit since my computer won't make a little 0 above and too the right of the 68). It can change due to temperature but I think as I remember from school it is the ACTUAL measurement of water vapor (or water in gas form or even water dissolved in air). I cannot determine this measurement as I'm not a trained meteorologist but I can say I can, with much ability tell you the difference between an 85 F day with a dewpoint of 60 F and a day at 85 F and a dewpoint of 70 F. It's a stiffling difference!

John M. Carper
 
How about dewpoint? Isn't that the actual measurement of water in the gas form in the air.....hence a dewpoint of say 68 degrees F (that's degrees in Fairenheit since my computer won't make a little 0 above and too the right of the 68). It can change due to temperature but I think as I remember from school it is the ACTUAL measurement of water vapor (or water in gas form or even water dissolved in air). I cannot determine this measurement as I'm not a trained meteorologist but I can say I can, with much ability tell you the difference between an 85 F day with a dewpoint of 60 F and a day at 85 F and a dewpoint of 70 F. It's a stiffling difference!

John M. Carper

Actually, most computers will make the temp zero by holding the Alt key, and punching in 167 on the number keypad!! :D
 
How about dewpoint? Isn't that the actual measurement of water in the gas form in the air.....hence a dewpoint of say 68 degrees F (that's degrees in Fairenheit since my computer won't make a little 0 above and too the right of the 68). It can change due to temperature but I think as I remember from school it is the ACTUAL measurement of water vapor (or water in gas form or even water dissolved in air). I cannot determine this measurement as I'm not a trained meteorologist but I can say I can, with much ability tell you the difference between an 85 F day with a dewpoint of 60 F and a day at 85 F and a dewpoint of 70 F. It's a stiffling difference!

John M. Carper

Dew point temperature is defined as the temperature to which the air would have to cool (at constant pressure and constant water vapour content) in order to reach saturation. A state of saturation exists when the air is holding the maximum amount of water vapour possible at the existing temperature and pressure


Why this is important ? Water vapor in the air changes the bullet speed So I guess the real question is does a bullet travel faster with more or less water in the air
 
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some of us have the good sense to shut up and listen when someone with proven credentials is willing to spend his time and effort in the interest of furthering our understanding of the sport, and sharing that information with us for free. SHUT THE F UP AND LISTEN, or haul axx over to rimfirecentral. Seymour Fish
 
Listen: good advice!

I suspect what Bob C. is trying to tell us is that the grams/meter³ is the most useful way to express how the atmosphere is affecting our bullets. He may have a way to directly correlate the value to a tuner setting or ammo selection. He certainly knows how to make it work!

Jim
 
So I guess the real question is does a bullet travel faster with more or less water in the air

Neither. It slows less quickly when there is more humidity because humidity reduces density and hence drag.

Now over your 50 yd target range, I challenge you to compute the extra drop that occurs in a bullet launched at 1165 fps when the humidity drops from 100% to 50% all else being equal. Work out the math on that and then maybe we can all find something more interesting to talk about.
 
some of us have the good sense to shut up and listen when someone with proven credentials is willing to spend his time and effort in the interest of furthering our understanding of the sport, and sharing that information with us for free. SHUT THE F UP AND LISTEN, or haul axx over to rimfirecentral. Seymour Fish

I frequent this board every day, and also rimfirecentral. Your comment about hauling "axx over to rimfirecentral" is about as rude as the one that started this mess. They are different forums, for different disciplines, and cater to different discussions, but one is no more "high brow" than the other. Your comment implies a hierarchy such that one forum shows disdain for the other. This thread in general exemplifies why I really try to never post anything.
 
Neither. It slows less quickly when there is more humidity because humidity reduces density and hence drag.

Now over your 50 yd target range, I challenge you to compute the extra drop that occurs in a bullet launched at 1165 fps when the humidity drops from 100% to 50% all else being equal. Work out the math on that and then maybe we can all find something more interesting to talk about.


First off if there is less drag in high humidity and slows the bullet less then it's going to get to the target faster.Then it will shoot higher in low humidity. So it does move faster maybe a few milliseconds faster but it does. The increase or decrease in speed can affect your tuner settings also . If you went from using 1165 to 1164 I bet you would adjust your tuner. But to satisfy your need heres a chart.



Yards FPS Eng time to target @ 100% humidity
0000 1165 0121 0.00
0005 1153 0118 0.01
0010 1142 0116 0.03
0015 1131 0114 0.04
0020 1120 0111 0.05
0025 1110 0109 0.07
0030 1100 0107 0.08
0035 1091 0106 0.09
0040 1082 0104 0.11
0045 1073 0102 0.12
0050 1064 0101 0.14
At 50% 85F
0000 1165 0121 0.00
0005 1153 0118 0.01
0010 1141 0116 0.03
0015 1130 0113 0.04
0020 1120 0111 0.05
0025 1109 0109 0.07
0030 1099 0107 0.08
0035 1090 0105 0.09
0040 1081 0104 0.11
0045 1072 0102 0.12
0050 1063 0100 0.14

Now that I have this understanding in my mind can you explain to me the difference between spin drift and wind drift at 50% and 100% humidity using the same parameters

Jim
 
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Well, I think you can see that worrying about humidity in a 50 yd game - esp. when given sighters, is pretty much a waste of time.

Why does one adjust a tuner once it is set. The whole idea behind the tuner it so find that resonant vibration in the rifle. Once that is found, it is a done deal. Just like a tuning fork makes the same tone whether you strike it hard with a stick or soft with a spoon. The properties of the vibration are inherent to the gun, not the ammo.
 
If the vibration is from the gun ,then why do people re tune their rifles to different lots and speed of the ammo used. Maybe the vibration is caused by the bullet in the barrel and how fast it moves out. of the barrel. With high humidity the bullet will leave the barrel faster and hence you might need to adjust your tuner. I'm sure if you don't and keep it where it is you might lose a point here and there. It's your choice and your the expert on humidity and tuners, So I will adjust mine and you can weld yours in place.

Do you change your tuner setting when you change ammo lots or do you go through lots to you find one that shoots at your tuner setting ? I would be curious as to why you do it if you do . As I am willing to learn new things are you ?

I have shot in 7 matches this year and it being my first year I think im doing ok. How about you have you shot this year and what are your scores


Jim
 
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