g n brezinski
Member
what is your take on them and when you use them what barrel contour do you need to make weight .i have a stole panda action on my lv class 6mm ppc
barrel tuners
- Thread starter g n brezinski
- Start date
sbindy
Steve B
My LV barrels all weigh around 5lbs with the tuner installed, and it weighs 4ozs, which is what most of the tuners I see being used weigh. I've been using them for a year, and they do change the harmonics of the barrel. I just question at this point if it's still worth putting one on because I still have to adjust the powder for conditions and seating depth to fine tune the group. The tuner isn't absolving me of making those adjustments. Right now the one on my LV rifle is tuned for 30.5grs of N133. At some point when it gets cold enough and I have to back down to 30.1, it's not going to be in tune anymore and I will have to rerun the test to get it back, which is another trip to the range and more rounds down the tube. Same thing when I have to go back to 30.3. One of my 3 rifles next year will have a heavier contour barrel on it at the same length to test that very thing.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
That's opposite to my findings over the last 16 or so years now but I think knowing how increment values affect group shape is what many people fail to thoroughly learn, first. After all, that's how we know by how much we need to move a tuner to maintain tune with a given powder charge. By far the most common mistake I see people make with tuners is moving way too far at a time. Without knowing values of each movement, that's inevitable, imho. So, ya gotta learn your tuner. It's not hard at all. Ya just have to be very methodical and step one is to establish what one mark does, what two marks does, etc. Different tuners act differently in this regard and very few have done the testing needed to establish these things before marketing their tuner. If ya don't know mark values on target, ya got nothing but a weight.
g n brezinski
Member
has anyone read the article by me calfee on harmonics in the precision shooting magazine .
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Yes, I remember that article. I think it was called "good vibrations." We've come a long way toward understanding them better since then. Tuners work but not the way he described, then or now. Most people just wanna know how to make them work as opposed to how they do what they do. Most agree that they work but the consensus falls about there. I've done vibration testing and quantified what I say. I've learned a tremendous amount on the subject and there is still a lot to be learned. Most of what you read on the net is just flat wrong but again, the important thing is that if you have a method that works for you, then run with it.
There used to be some really good reading on this forum about tuners that didn't end in shat shows like other places. People on here actually tested things and others sincerely came here wanting to learn. Much of the testing I've done was because BS didn't fly on here and testing in all fashions was the basis for many good threads here. It has become something else for various reasons. I get into these discussions and it seems people who have done the least testing speak the loudest, often.
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
Al's test shows the method I use as well as what I look for. Most show group shape changes more clearly than his example but the critical info I look for is there. Not much time at the moment but I'll try to elaborate as time allows and post more test targets. Had tons but lost a lot in a computer crash a while back. Again though, imo, the key is knowing what to expect from whatever increment you move it in. Without knowing that, I think we'd all agree that we're just guessing. It should not be about guessing. It won't be to tell anyone that what they do is wrong but just MY method, so no need to argue. I'll try to explain what I look for and why as well as how that relates to what we learned during vibration analysis tests.
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
As I recall, Gene Bukys recommended locking the tuner in one position (I guess chosen based on testing) and adjusting the powder, rather than adjusting the tuner. If my recollection is correct, I wonder why his recommendation seems inconsistent with somewhat frequent adjusting. If my recollection is incorrect, it won't be the first time.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Keep in mind, he was one of the best ever at powder tuning a 6ppc. His belief was that the tuner made that even easier because it increased the tune window. Technically, he was correct but the difference is tiny. Ill go into detail on this later but this is the one area where he and i were totally opposed to one another. Sure, you can logically follow the advice of a hof'er but this is an area that was quantified in testing and is verified every day by various shooters. I just feel like he was leaving the best part of a tuner on the table, likely due to lack of testing in small increments. By far the most common mistake made is moving too far at a time and not knowing WHY you moved in those increments in the first place. That's step one, with any tuner and frankly, any tuning process. Moving in full turns or quarter turns or any amount without A PREDICTABLE result is guessing. That's exactly what we want to avoid. Would we just take a wild guess at powder charge increments? If so, well, moving a tuner a full turn at a time is akin to tuning in 2 or 3 full grain at a time increments. Nobody does that, right? Remember, his early tuners didn't even have numbers or any kind of markings...fwiw.
I'll try to stay with MY method and you can all draw your own conclusions from it, but not right now. Just wanted to address your legitimate question.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
I watched one of Erik Cortina's interviews recently with a LD champion and one who is regarded to be The Tuner Expert, Erik's Words, in the LD game that lad played in.
Without going into much for details he stated that there is one spot in a tuner that is the best spot and one should go through the testing to identify that spot and stick with it. He said he mostly never changed the tuner for the match once he checked the rifle at the location he was at. Set it and forget it. Of course LD boomers could be a slightly different animal, I don't know.
Having done a lot of tuner testing with RF rifles, I would concur that I found that to be true time after tie with RF rifles and Harrell Tuners.
If my VFS rifle doesn't shoot one bullet hole I find that I can make it do so with a very minute movement of my tuner.
Without going into much for details he stated that there is one spot in a tuner that is the best spot and one should go through the testing to identify that spot and stick with it. He said he mostly never changed the tuner for the match once he checked the rifle at the location he was at. Set it and forget it. Of course LD boomers could be a slightly different animal, I don't know.
Having done a lot of tuner testing with RF rifles, I would concur that I found that to be true time after tie with RF rifles and Harrell Tuners.
If my VFS rifle doesn't shoot one bullet hole I find that I can make it do so with a very minute movement of my tuner.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Me, I'd go with 13My work with the Ezell PDT 7 oz. tuner last season:
The next day, I went a little further out:
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I think the highlighted text should clear his words up for all better. If there's one magical spot, why did he change it for different locations, etc? Tuning to shoot small is the easy part. Tuning on the fly and to conditions is the trick and how tuners shine.
I have never found this to be the case but I do hear it from others a lot. Calfee preached this parallel node(his terminology) stuff for a long time.
This seems counter to what you just said. But if you're saying it applies differently to cf vs rf..how so?
I read and hear these theories a lot but no one has ever been able to explain any of it in a way that agrees with science.
Something of important relevance that does agree with science is that smokeless powder turning from a solid into a gas is a chemical reaction and all chemical reactions are temperature dependent. That said, it's easy to see how the pressure curve inside the bore and even velocities can and do change with temp changes.
Of course this means, we can't have the same bullet exit times over all conditions, which is why tune changes with conditions...for the most part. Air density is a distant second place in this regard and unless loading at the range, I've never found humidity alone to be a factor.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
What I have done a lot of is shoot RF rifles inside and have for sure found many times there is the best place in a tuner. What it presents is a flat node, if you will. That is to say the tuner can be moves in either direction a click two three without much change in group shape. I don't claim to be an expert and have not done a lot of extensive testing, particularly with CF tuners. RF guns are a lot easier to experiment with for a number of reasons. I have had a love-hate relationship with the CF tuners I have had since they were first allowed to be used. My Hunter guns don't have any now and my VFS rifle does. Primarily because of the scope limitations. I know there are days my rifles go out of tune but for me, there are too many variables and when the flags don't stop being a moving jumble. How could one possibly know they have made a change if they are always holding off? For that reason I take what the rifle will give me for that day. I'd have to even with a tuner or be lost worse.
I know tuners work and I know you have done a lot to advance their use and I respect that. I'm just one of those people who is adverse to details and remembering stuff, particularly in my 80th year. One had more each year until about 50 and then it goes the other way, I have found. I only say what has worked for me and what does work for me. If that is all wrong, so be it.
I have never used a Harrell tuner on a CF rifle. The nice thing about the Harrell tuner is the nicely engraved scales on them and the click detent that gives a positive resting place. One can actually know where thy are very easily. The two scales make a wonderful reference and ease of use. I know folks do a lot of modifications to the Harrell tuner. I have run 0ne of mine without the click detent feature but didn't see any difference. The other tuners I have owned do not have the same features. Do they matter? They do to me and that is what I have primarily been concerned with; what I could understand easily. Generally, there is nobody helping one in person.
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
I can appreciate anyone doing what works for them. Again, I really like to keep these discussions limited to my method of tuning rather than different makes or designs. I make tuners but I'm not trying to sell anyone anything by explaining my method. Only hoping to help people understand them better and the process I use does that quite well, imho....without getting deep into the weeds. That's where tuner threads get sideways. Bottom line, if people shoot my test and it shows them a methodical approach to using tuners, the details become more self evident. At the very least, they hopefully gain the most important part...how to tune with them. That's all most people really care about.
It's a method is all, but at the same time, that method disproves a lot of what I read and hear, especially on the internet. You literally shoot the test and can see much of what takes place..with your own rifle. I just help with interpreting the results and determining increment values. Granted, with my own tuners, it's much easier as I already know what to expect and mark values. Like I said before, ya gotta know those values or you literally are just moving and hoping. There really is a better way than just twisting until it shoots small and then not knowing how to fix it when the tune changes. We've all seen tune change, both with and without tuners. That's precisely why most cf group shooters load at the range. I do not believe tuners can prevent tune from changing but rather, they can bring it back into tune...if used properly. But in order to do that, ya have to know how much to move it when it goes out. That's where so many people get lost. It's just not that difficult but it is if you constantly twist without knowing what to expect from whatever move you make. That's where discussing MY tuner vs every make and model greatly simplifies everything. Different tuners have different values, both on the tuner markings as well as on the target. So yes, it can be confusing because we're not all using the same tuner. I know my tuners like the back of my hand and I know what each mark should do to the group shape, how many marks between sweet spots, etc. And yes, it's that predictable across a very wide range of guns/bbl contours etc.
RF is a bit different but not drastically at all. Bottom line, you can test with whatever tuner you have until you learn these mark values or you can call me, order my tuner and I can/will walk you through every detail and your test results using my tuning method.
I read posts like yours all the time and I mean this in the best possible way but it's very easy to see that you and many others often fail to see the all important group shapes and defining of nodal cycles that you really have to know in order to reliably get predictable results from whatever incremental changes to the tuner you make. This is almost always from moving it way too far at a time.
g n brezinski
Member
thanks for all your imput
While I do not use tuners as of yet for CFBR I have extensive RFBR tuner experience.
Anyways, over the last couple years I have had pretty extensive conversations with a few of the best group shooters in the country about the subject.
First off, the barrel companies, for those unaware, offer LV tuner tapers with slightly smaller OD ‘s to allow weight at a good length.
What I learned, virtually to a man, the tuner ultimately gets locked and never moved with powder adjustments made when needed, seems smaller adjustments do the job If and when needed. This past weekend at NYS Pro/Am match talked to a bunch of guys, most sporting Pinehardt tuners, including Jeff who has been tearing it up at matches for a while now. Same answers across the board.
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Anyways, over the last couple years I have had pretty extensive conversations with a few of the best group shooters in the country about the subject.
First off, the barrel companies, for those unaware, offer LV tuner tapers with slightly smaller OD ‘s to allow weight at a good length.
What I learned, virtually to a man, the tuner ultimately gets locked and never moved with powder adjustments made when needed, seems smaller adjustments do the job If and when needed. This past weekend at NYS Pro/Am match talked to a bunch of guys, most sporting Pinehardt tuners, including Jeff who has been tearing it up at matches for a while now. Same answers across the board.
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And yet, here you are.
He said, she said, seems solid when you actually have conversations with winners of major CFBR matches on a regular basis about methodology as opposed to little/no results……unless you count forum validation posts