Any Professional Machinist?

S

Signguy

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I am looking to do a career change. I am looking into a 4 year program (90 cr hrs) vs. a 2 year program (30 cr hrs).
I am going to have to do this at night and work in the day.
I always felt there are no short cuts in anything but would like some advice from any machinist out there.
Cost on these programs are very different 3500.00 vs. 12,000.00.
Any opinions or advice would be appreciated.

Tim
 
Tim can you be a little more specific on the programs you are considering.
The term machinist is is a lot like the term doctor, rather all encompassing.
 
I've worked in the machinist trade in some capacity since 1997. It can in fact be a very rewarding career.

While I admire your enthusiasm, I would like to offer some nuts and bolts reality with this trade.

"Machinist" nowadays is a very loosely used term. There are Machine programmers and set up guys and then there are machine operators.

The machine programmer/set up guy does the cool stuff.

The machine operator pushes a green button and runs a file/burring tool between cycles deburring parts. Parts that could come off the machine burr free in most cases but the programmer/set up guy is too lazy to add the additional tool paths to do this.

The path towards financial independence propaganda that the trade schools cram down your throat sets you up for failure if your not careful. Trade schools are a right of passage to getting you a job. That's how they work. Your not going to come out the gate making the 50-60K a year that they claim. Never mind the student loans and pile of debt you'll accumulate during your education

You'll be lucky to bring home half that the first 5 years.


Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to dooms day your intentions. Good machinists and good employees are hard to find and are always in demand. Those with a natural gift excel in this trade and can do quite well.

Here is what I did. I started as a maggot. I made 7 bucks an hour and went home covered in cutting oil every night for the first year. (Hardinge chucker lathe) I actually ran a band saw most of the time. Eventually I was turned loose on a manual mill. What I learned there is how to actually cut material. That experience was/is priceless and it's a resource that I refer to every day now as owner of my own business (and a lazy programmer/set up guy. my parts are always burr free btw:D)

Good luck in your quest.


Chad
 
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In my previous day job, one of the project areas I worked within several programs in training machinists and machine operators so I know the processes and results pretty well. In previous years, before we let the New Tomorrow crowd export all our jobs, a machinist was almost certain that if he/she wanted to work, they could find a job. In the high density shop areas like Detroit, they could just roll their tool chest down the street to get a better job if they wished.

In todays job market, we have been being told that we would become a service society. Service? Service what? Most every thing now is throw-away.

The "new" propaganda being spread tells us we will have "green" jobs. Sure we can build windmills but what will they power? IF, IF, we do get our game back together, some of those "green" jobs will need machinists...to build windmills and such...if we build them here.

Getting back to what you want to hear, in a machine tool training program the more training you can get and the more training you can afford, the more employable you will be.

There are several levels of "machinist" type jobs. There are Computerized Numerical Control, CNC, machine operators, those who just push the Cycle Start button.

There are programmer/machinists who set up and program CNC machine tools as well as sometimes being the operator also. Many small machine shops now use CNC to varying extents. This is the modern semi-automation which is probably 50-60% of the job-shop environment. These jobs normally require a 2-year Junior college associates egree.

The next level up would be Machinists. These are people who can operate most all the machine tools in a shop. These jobs normally pay more than the above. This slot requires a 4-year training program. These programs many times are approved by the US Dept of Labor. Sometimes larger manufacturers will have an in-house apprenticeship program. The beauty of this is you are getting paid while you are learning. An alternative to this is like a program I set up between Eastman Chemical and a Tennessee Community College. In this unique program, the community college provided the classroom training and Eastman provided the on-the-machine training.

Jobs like the 4-year program above at top pay, usually 3-4 years after graduation, pay in the mid middle income range. Most all these are under the Bureau of Apprenticeship Training (BAT) US Dept of Labor.

Another top slot of 4-year training is a Tool and Die, or Tool Maker, programs. These are most times BAT-DOL programs also. Tool & Die makers is kind of the masters degree of the "machinist" job arena.

Sorry for getting political, but over the years I have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears in training young people for worthwhile jobs. IF you wish, PM me and I will give you my email address. One minor problem here is that I am leaving Thursday for the IBS Nationals and will be off-line for about 10 days.
 
Machinist

I guess I qualify as a "professional", since I own a Machine Shop, (we do Marine Machine Shop Work), and have been a Machinist for the better part of 40 years.

Most of the other posters have given you a good breakdown as to what the different classifications of "machinist" are.

Back in the old days, before the second World War, many of your machinist were trained in Rail Road Shops. Steam Locomotives had a miriad of moving parts, that had to be constantly maintained and repaired.

You learned everything from how to run lathes, mills, shapers, boring mills, verticles, drill presses, plus how to pour Babitt Bearings, hammer them in, bore, and then scrape them to fit, pull pieces apart, and press them back together, and the ins and outs of just about every other concievable part of moving equipment.

As the Rail Road went Diesel, (VERY little machine shop work), more of the machinist started coming out of the Shipyards and Oil Field Equipment Supplyers. When working on the various parts for Boats and Ships, you got about the same all around education as in a Rail Road Shop.

Then as airplanes took over transpotation, that industry created an entire new field for Machinist. Some of the finest Tool and Die Men, and Jouneymen Machinist, were trained in Aircraft Shops.

Then came the CNC revolution, which evolved into the CAD-CAM that has taken over just about every production phase of Machine Shop Work.

There are, however, multitudes of "job shops" that still specialize in the type of work that requires a machinist who can, for all purposes, figure out set-ups and run any machine. These are the men that make the top wage.

My shop is such a shop. The last two men I have aquired, we trained ourselves. We went to the local High School, found a couple of young men who could think on their feet, and trained them. One has been with us 9 years, the other 7, Both make $30 an hour straight time, get two weeks paid vacation, 8 paid holidays, Medical, and Uniforms. That, and 10 hous of over time quite often.

These young men, (and two others we have), can do anything I ask, from machining large propellar shafts, making bushings, cutting keways, (internal and external),boring millset-ups, making large nuts, bolts, drill holes, dis-assemble and re-assemble equipment, or just about any other work that can be performed with the equipmemt on hand.

When I state out with a new man, the very first thing I instill in his thought process is this: "It is not enough for a good machinist to simply know HOW to do things". A good Machinist must have a thorough knowledge as to WHY you do things". That includes the basic concept of how varied pieces of machinery work together, the requirements and priciples of rotating machinery, and the understanding of materials, the understanding of threads, bearings, running fits, interference fits, deflection, and runnout.

Think about it. If you know WHY things are done a certain way, and the why to the general areas I mentioned, then there are no mysteries.

The shame of it is that most of our Apprentice Programs that were sponsored by the large Oil Field Shops and Shipyards went away with the big reccession of the 80's. I am fortunate to have the men I have.

In all honesty, what passes for a Machinist in todays world is simply a Machine Operator. But, that is what Industry wants. Put the sophistication and capability in the machine, and hire someone for $8 an hour to sit and watch it cycle.

If you want to be a Machinist, one thing you have to find out is where in the Country Machinist are needed. The oilpatch is a good place to look, so are the coastal areas that have a lot of shipyards and refinerys and require shops to do one piece work. I leave out the Aircraft Industry, because more and more, this is taken overby the CAD-CAM concept.

Thereare multitudesofsmall job shops scattered all over the country, manycrop up around a certain industry.

In a shop like ours, there is little fear that our type of work can be displaced by CAD-CAM. 90 percent of what we do is repair, usually on something that looks like exactly what it is. A piece of machinery that has been subjected to the rigors and destructive aspect of the Marine Industry. Some times you have to remove 1/2 inch of scale, rust, and dead oysters and barnicles just to see what you have.

I am not that familiar with Trade Schools. I have a feeling that many are simply teaching students how to "paint by the numbers". But, at least, you will get a basic education as to the general concepts in Machine Shop Practice.
That is, untill you come into a shop and the owners says, "forget all of that, I will teach you to do things the way the real world does it".

Good Luck.......jackie
 
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Thanks for the replies guys.
As far as the programs, the one I am looking at is the 90 cr hr program that is a two year program in a comminuty college 4 hrs a day 5 days a week.
Somehow I need to do that, and try to keep the business going to make a buck while I am in school. We will have to see how that plays out.
Starts off with basic lathe and mill operation and goes into surface grinder ect.
Last 25% of the courses are all dedicated to the CNC end of things.
I live near Portland, Oregon and have the shipyards here.
I have also seen many jobs working in research and development for companies building prototypes and such.
I know I can't find the dream job right out of the gate but I have to start somewhere. Is what I don't want is a job where I am making the same part over and over again. I just can't do it. I need to keep the head thinking and interested.

Again, thanks for the replies and if anyone else has more to add please do.

Tim
 
I am not a machinist (rather a typesetter), but there is a lot of good information between Jerry's and Jackie's posts. Typesetting, as have so many crafts/trades, has migrated to the countries with lower wages, typically India.

Now, the Asians are not stupid or lazy. However, even until wages in Asia catch up with wages in the States -- if they ever do in our lifetime -- there is usually work in a craft or trade if you are good enough; if you look for it.

In our business, book composition (typesetting books), the companies in India are set up to do larger jobs, to do high-volume work. Perforce, those jobs can't be as specialized. Much of the straightforward stuff may go there, and in many ways, a typesetter working in that environment is like what Jackie calls a "machine operator."

But how, for example, do you set a text with Kiowa or Navajo words in it, where the characters you need are not available in any typeface you'd care to use? Well, one way is to use our company to set the type. I can "cut" (make) the needed characters. No extra charge, I figure it is part of my job.

How do you design (give complete specifications) for a text that is very complicated? You cannot; so use us, we like to think we can see the logic of a design, and flush out the details. Often, no extra charge -- depends on just how complex.

You can call us a boutique shop or a specialty shop, or whatever you want, but we always seem to have work. In the past recession, we have have two slow months, and have had no layoffs or furloughs. Knock on wood.

None of this is machining, but it is craft work. A simple observation, but I think a true one: the better you are at your craft, the better your odds of finding an area of specialization where you are THE EXPERT, and so, have work. It probably won't be the high life, but there will likely be enough money to live comfortably. The one caveat is you may not be able to find work in a large organization, for the usual reasons.

As far as the schooling goes, a certain amount can be learned in school, a certain amount you just have to learn on your own. Machining is different than typesetting, so I'd not venture any opinions of how much of each you need.

Good luck to you,

Charles
 
Tim

I might add this as well.

Machinist can often be divided into two categories. Those that get really dirty, and those that do not.

I have been in shops that darned near looked like laboratories, clean, pristine.

Then there are shops like mine, where everything has the sheen of sulphurized cutting oil, and the machines sound like huge thrashing machines reeking havoc on big chunks of steel.

Attitudes change as well. A while back, an old retired machinist from my Dads era came by, just to say high. He noticed the man hauling shavings out, and cleaning the machines. He said in his day a machinist cleaned up his own mess.

I told him that sounded noble. but considering what I have to pay my Machinist, I need them to be making shavings, not carrying them to the skip bucket. I pay a helper $10 an hour to do that..........jackie
 
Another Way To Attack This

is to find a shop that has an apprenticeship program. You'll learn on the fly while getting paid. They may even pay for your education. They will teach you real world experience of how to do thing their way. You might want to pick up a few basic machining and math classes beforehand, in 4 years (or less) you'll have a journeyman's card which helps if you decide to move to a different shop.
 
There was an interesting show on PBS a few years back spotlighting successfull mid-sized companies. One was in Germay which made special ovens. As they toured the plant they went through a workroom where apprentices were being trained. they were filing on small blocks of steel. The narator asked why have them do this, your plant is almost all CNC? The owner said that they were taught to do everything by hand first so that they would know what the machines were doing. Then he went on to say that USA was making a big mistake because they have largely gotten away from apprentice programs, and would run out of skilled workers. The narator jumped to the defense of the USA and said something about the machinetool age in the USA. The owner said that to a great extent the USA machine tool age was fueled by skilled immigrants who were trained as apprentices in europe.
 
Papapaul

You hit the nail on the head. All kids in High School hear is, "go to college, get a degree, so you can sit in a cubicle in a office in the air conditioning".

Out of the 12 full time employs we have, only one is a non-Hispanic. He has been with us since 1978.

The big secret in todays work force is that skilled Jouneymen, whether they are plumbers, carpenters, machinist, electricians, etc, make a very good living, one that would be considered "upper middle class'.

My Wife and Daughter are both School Teachers, which requires a college degree. Both make about 1/2 what my Machinists make.

Our public education system has let Industry down by stressing white collar careers, demeaning 'work", and giving the idea that blue collar jobs are for those that are lacking the mental capability to do the important stuff.

Well, tell that to the Journeyman Plumber who has his house paid for, takes care of his familly, and drives a new truck every three years, and probably has enough left over to enjoy a hobby like Benchrest..........jackie
 
Jackie, you are 100% right! Our school systems, and our current culture, is "a college degree".

What ever happened to getting your hands dirty?
 
papapaul said:
T they were filing on small blocks of steel. .
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The first machine shop course I ever took, filing a block of steel square on all 6 sides was the first metal removal the student did. Filing the block was just after the several days on using measuring instruments.This course was Machine Tools for Engineers at Va Tech.

Wayne, yes we did get our hands dirty. Now dirty is above most young folks. They don't even wear the same shirt and pants all day.
 
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Jerry

Speaking of filing steel blocks, here is a story of a "lost art"

Before about the mid 70's, large reduction gears and Engines in boats used to be set in place on "fitted chocks". These were steel blocks with a slight taper machined in that a "Outside Machinist" or Mill Right had to hand fit, in place.

First, the gear or engine was lined up with what ever it mated to. With a Gear, it was the propellar shaft, the Engine, the input to the gear.

There was a pre-determined space of about 1 inch between the base of the Gear and the Foundation that was milled in a slight angle. The machinist would reach in and caliper the four corners, You then had to machine a steel "chock" to fit perfectly in that space.

Of course, it never did, so you had to take impressions with Prussian Blue, file the high spots, and continue this untill the chock had at least 90 percent contact.

You would then tap the chock in tight, and drill and ream a precision hole for a body fit foundation bolt.

Talk about a lost art?? Now, instead of fitted steel chocks, they use a special epoxie called "chock fast'. You line every thing up, drill your foundation holes, tap in the fitted bolts, dam off the area with foam, and "pour" the chocks. It really does work great.

Almost all of the heavy machinery that used to be set on fitted chocks, (generators, pumps, blowers, gears. wenches, etc), are now chocked in with poured chockfast. When we built our big 15 ton gantry crane a number of years ago, we set the tracks on chockfast.

I can't say as I mind this one bit. Because filing chocks down in the engine room of a tug boat or ship ranks right up there with making bullets.

And you know what I think of making bullets:D........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
Speaking of filing steel blocks, here is a story of a "lost art"



Talk about a lost art??

I can't say as I mind this one bit. Because filing chocks down in the engine room of a tug boat or ship ranks right up there with making bullets.

And you know what I think of making bullets:D........jackie
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Jackie, to me the really tragic lost art in the machine tool arena is way scraping. I had a big Cincinnati-Milacron cylindrical grinder rebuilt in place about 1993 or so. I had an old guy that came in and scraped the ways. Amazing to watch him work. He had been retired for a few years from one of the big New England builders. I believe it was Bullard. It was DeVleig-Bullard at Twinsburg, OH that sent him in.
 
I'll second Papapaul I started my machine experience when I started at Trinidad State for my degree in gunsmithing. All the machines were manual and that's all they taught. After I got done with college I moved back to my home town and got a job working as a button pusher running two CNC lathes. With the fundamentals from my manual experience picking up the hole CNC thing was easy. Within two year's I had moved up to the title of setup tech/part time programmer and that's wear things start getting fun. I ended up spending almost all of my time building tooling and fixtures by the end. What it all boils down to is cutting metal is cutting metal. It dosent matter if your cranking a handle or typing code. when you get done with your schooling and go to work somewhere see if you cant befriend the smartest guy in the shop and let him teach everything he can. you will learn more in the first year in the shop than four years in school but you do need the school.

where are you looking at going to school? I'm from madras OR.

Jake Collier
 
jackie schmidt said:
Talk about a lost art?? Now, instead of fitted steel chocks, they use a special epoxie called "chock fast'. You line every thing up, drill your foundation holes, tap in the fitted bolts, dam off the area with foam, and "pour" the chocks. It really does work great.

Almost all of the heavy machinery that used to be set on fitted chocks, (generators, pumps, blowers, gears. wenches, etc), are now chocked in with poured chockfast. When we built our big 15 ton gantry crane a number of years ago, we set the tracks on chockfast.

........jackie
Click to expand...

Jackie, how good/bad would "chockfast" work as a gun bedding compound?............Don
 
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Even up here in Maine

there is a small demand for machinists in small shops that do work for a number of companies but also the "Guvment". One of the guys who shoots with us sometimes is in the management of a company that does this kind of work. He told me they struggle to find compitent workers. I haven't "Talked Shop" with him for a couple of years so I don't know if the "Help" situation has improved. The last time I talked shop with him they were making the frame for LCD HD tv's. He told me they were machined out of solid aluminum which I thought to be interesting. A neophite might assume they would use cast or forged parts but apparently not. I believe a Machinist can still find work here in Maine even though most of our Industries have moved years since. A few seem to hang on. I would guess a Tool & Die or Toolmaker would always be able to find a good paying job and I will bet that a good Machine Scraper could also make a good living. Specialized fields should always be in demand.
 
A good machinist (journeyman) is a rare person and can work wherever he wants, but in todays word to make it I think you must know CNC programming..frist then basic machining second...just about all job shops now have some variation of CNC equipment for their bread & butter work...for instance a local Train Car repair shop uses a CNC to turn axles to meet spec and that shop/operator has to pass certification annually...it is difficult and time consuming to try and meet finished specifications on those axles manually where the CNC hits it on the money...BUT they have to pay BIG time to keep that CNC prtogrammed and holding tolerance...whereas they can manually machine their incoming misc. jobs on the manual equipment...and every shop strives to keep a contract for piece work to pay the bills...hence CNC..
 
Eww

In another 25 years, we will all be shining each others shoes, and flipping each others hamburgers.

There won't be anything left.

Another aspect where CAD has displace workers is in the constructuion of boat.

Take a typical 90 foot long Tug Boat. It will typically have about 3500 total horsepower.

In years past, when a yard built a boat, they had men that drew up master patterns that were transferred to templates. These templates were full size, and the burners who flame cut the pieces used these to flame cut every piece for the boat. These templates were usually done in a 'loft", hence these skilled template makers were called 'loftsmen.

Now, a marine engineer, in conjuction with a program writer, designs the entire vessel in the computer. The programm accounts for every line, curve, and angle for the shape of every piece. This is put on a disc.

This disc is then sent to a steel supplyer who has a burnung machine that is compatible with that program, and the automated burning machine, (more times than not water cutting), burns out the entire boat, and I mean everything. It even numbers each piece.

The entire pile is loaded onto trucks, and sent to the shipyard, who stack and weld it all together.

Great, and efficient, way to build a vessel. But, it also took away quite a few skilled jobs.

But then, you don't see too many buggy whip manufacturers nowdays either.

I'll take fries with that burger.........jackie
 
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