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Bullet94
Guest
Anyone heard of this?
Quote was taken from another forum.
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Larry Elliott
Guest
Way back when I was working my way through college I worked at the Anaconda Copper (ACM) refinery in Great Falls, Montana. They didn't produce copper alloys, just refined copper wire bars and wire. They did produce zinc alloys though, and if copper alloys were produced in a similar fashion I wouldn't be surprised at all that there could be a 13% difference in hardness from case to case due entirely to the alloying.
Things may have improved in the nearly fifty years since I last worked in th at industry, and they'd have to in order to produce more uniform alloys. Non-uniform alloys would help explain why in a given lot of cases some necks harden faster than others when fired and sized. Even with top of the line brass it's evident. Maybe it's hard to produce copper alloys that are within a very narrow range of content in a single melt. Sampling would have a hard time discovering this though.
The method of sampling gives an average for whatever it is that's being sampled. If a load of alloy is being shipped from a producer it's drilled in several places, the chips collected, and sent to a lab (the producer's lab most likely). The chips are mixed, dissolved, and anaylzed for the major constituents. If the analysis shows that the alloy is "okay" within the range specified by ASTM, the buyer, or whoever else is specifying it's shipped. If the buyer tests the rolls of metal they will do likewise, sample the roll in several places, send it for analysis, and if it's within specs it's okay. Obviously there's errors all along the way. The entire lot of metal can't be tested since there wouldn't be any left to make product, the lab can't analyze the entire sample it receives for various reasons, and the actual analysis can be faulty. A well trained chemist in a modern lab with good equipment should be able to produce an analysis that is will be within experimental error time after time after time though. I'm likely biased since I spent many years analyzing various materials for metals though.
Things may have improved in the nearly fifty years since I last worked in th at industry, and they'd have to in order to produce more uniform alloys. Non-uniform alloys would help explain why in a given lot of cases some necks harden faster than others when fired and sized. Even with top of the line brass it's evident. Maybe it's hard to produce copper alloys that are within a very narrow range of content in a single melt. Sampling would have a hard time discovering this though.
The method of sampling gives an average for whatever it is that's being sampled. If a load of alloy is being shipped from a producer it's drilled in several places, the chips collected, and sent to a lab (the producer's lab most likely). The chips are mixed, dissolved, and anaylzed for the major constituents. If the analysis shows that the alloy is "okay" within the range specified by ASTM, the buyer, or whoever else is specifying it's shipped. If the buyer tests the rolls of metal they will do likewise, sample the roll in several places, send it for analysis, and if it's within specs it's okay. Obviously there's errors all along the way. The entire lot of metal can't be tested since there wouldn't be any left to make product, the lab can't analyze the entire sample it receives for various reasons, and the actual analysis can be faulty. A well trained chemist in a modern lab with good equipment should be able to produce an analysis that is will be within experimental error time after time after time though. I'm likely biased since I spent many years analyzing various materials for metals though.
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4Mesh
Guest
Bullet94,
Years ago I tried to do some real SWAG testing on brass to just compare differences in the materials. Also when annealing, I wanted to know how much I was changing the material on a relative basis.
When you try to "test" brass after it's been formed into a cartridge, it's really tough to do. First, the cross section is so thin, you need to be careful of what anvil / stylus you're using, or the thin materials will get you. Not many folks have equipment to test that kind of cross section (.012" thick and soft.)
Then, you have the issue that the neck is softer than the body, softer than the head when you get it. It's that way for a reason. So, where do you check.
Also, without modifing the case, it's pretty tough to test. By modifying it, you are changing the hardness of the brass. It's like a no win situation.
I'd be willing to bet that there was 13% error in my measurements. Easily. My very unscientific tests showed 50% change from one part of the case to the next. I will admit that I did not have the proper tool to test, and was using the wrong stylus/anvil combination. My purpose was only to compare for my own reasons so I didn't care about that.
There's probably something to be learned in there, but even if you learn it, it isn't something we can fix. It's not like Norma is gonna care if I call up and ask them to make 100 brass for me that's xyz chemistry.
ymmv
Years ago I tried to do some real SWAG testing on brass to just compare differences in the materials. Also when annealing, I wanted to know how much I was changing the material on a relative basis.
When you try to "test" brass after it's been formed into a cartridge, it's really tough to do. First, the cross section is so thin, you need to be careful of what anvil / stylus you're using, or the thin materials will get you. Not many folks have equipment to test that kind of cross section (.012" thick and soft.)
Then, you have the issue that the neck is softer than the body, softer than the head when you get it. It's that way for a reason. So, where do you check.
Also, without modifing the case, it's pretty tough to test. By modifying it, you are changing the hardness of the brass. It's like a no win situation.
I'd be willing to bet that there was 13% error in my measurements. Easily. My very unscientific tests showed 50% change from one part of the case to the next. I will admit that I did not have the proper tool to test, and was using the wrong stylus/anvil combination. My purpose was only to compare for my own reasons so I didn't care about that.
There's probably something to be learned in there, but even if you learn it, it isn't something we can fix. It's not like Norma is gonna care if I call up and ask them to make 100 brass for me that's xyz chemistry.
ymmv
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Tony C
Guest
If there is significant difference in hardness from case to case, would annealing make them more uniform in hardness?
Tony Carpenter
Tony Carpenter
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Bullet94
Guest
Lately I’ve been reading about annealing and this lead me to the response about the mixture of the alloy not being the same. If the alloy mixture is variable then I believe that annealing would just soften the brass but wouldn’t /couldn’t make the case neck tension uniform.
You might not be able to fix the brass due to the alloy mixture being variable but you could allow for the variance by using one of the devices to measure the force/pressure when seating bullets. I just found it interesting to see some actual testing on the case for the rockwell hardness and the 13% difference reported. Something to be aware of.
You might not be able to fix the brass due to the alloy mixture being variable but you could allow for the variance by using one of the devices to measure the force/pressure when seating bullets. I just found it interesting to see some actual testing on the case for the rockwell hardness and the 13% difference reported. Something to be aware of.
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4Mesh
Guest
Well, actually, you can. Or, you can sure make them real close. I anneal every firing and I'd say my neck tensions are about as nice as it can get. I anneal pretty hard, more so than most people feel is necessary.
The 13% doesn't really surprise me. I've shot brand new cases in sets of 20 where some take the fireform real nice, and other cases in the set blow the primer pockets. I don't think that's real uncommon. At least not with the cases I shoot it's not.
Working the cases in your chamber and dies will help make them more consistant too. Neck turning really makes mine seat bullets nice as well.
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Bullet94
Guest
Anyone used these -
http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/1401461.htm
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/recoil.htm
If you have what differences did you find?
http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/1401461.htm
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/recoil.htm
If you have what differences did you find?
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
Haven't tested them, but I worry about anything that defines push in resistance as neck tension. I believe that pull out is the critical element.
As a worst case, it will undoubtedy take more to seat a projectile if you've goitred the case neck way under requirements than if it's a calculated compression usinbg precision gear. Nevertheless, if the former paactice has passed the case neck thru its coefficient of elasticity, who knows what residual force will be required for the powder charge to eject the projectile, compared to the calculated example.
I always cringe at those photos in old timey gun magazines that showed rounds like the 45/70 & .458 winchester with a cute little waist below the end of the projectile where ten thumbs had sized his cases way too much.
As a worst case, it will undoubtedy take more to seat a projectile if you've goitred the case neck way under requirements than if it's a calculated compression usinbg precision gear. Nevertheless, if the former paactice has passed the case neck thru its coefficient of elasticity, who knows what residual force will be required for the powder charge to eject the projectile, compared to the calculated example.
I always cringe at those photos in old timey gun magazines that showed rounds like the 45/70 & .458 winchester with a cute little waist below the end of the projectile where ten thumbs had sized his cases way too much.
Ken Light
I have and use the Ken Light annealing machine. Not only does it look like a work of art, it sure helps with my neck uniformity. I strongly recommend his tool. Doing the annealing by had just is not uniform enough for me.
I use it about every three firings and if is faster to do the annealing than it is to get it out of the box and set it up. Set up is: plug it in, heat water for the heat sink, and turin it on. Here is his website http://www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html scroll down to the annealing machine.
Hint: Order all your different shell plates at the time you order the machine and save a little money.
I have and use the Ken Light annealing machine. Not only does it look like a work of art, it sure helps with my neck uniformity. I strongly recommend his tool. Doing the annealing by had just is not uniform enough for me.
I use it about every three firings and if is faster to do the annealing than it is to get it out of the box and set it up. Set up is: plug it in, heat water for the heat sink, and turin it on. Here is his website http://www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html scroll down to the annealing machine.
Hint: Order all your different shell plates at the time you order the machine and save a little money.
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donjfred
Guest
confirming proper anneal?
Travelor,
How do you confirm that you have a proper anneal after you are finished?
Is the loss of shine method really accurate?
Travelor,
How do you confirm that you have a proper anneal after you are finished?
Is the loss of shine method really accurate?
donjfred
I initally set up the propane torches by watching the color of the brass "glow" in a darkened room. I am looking for a faint orange/reddish glow over the whole neck. After this is done, I turn the lights on and start anealing as the machine is so good there is no need to check further.
The resultant cases have a slightly darkened neck color with a very slight purplish ring at the botton like you would see from new military loaded ammo. Interesting to me is that different makes of brass end up with different neck "color".
Ken says you can use the temperature sticks to check, but I have found the above method works very well for me and accuracy is improved with no softening of the cases below the shoulders.
I initally set up the propane torches by watching the color of the brass "glow" in a darkened room. I am looking for a faint orange/reddish glow over the whole neck. After this is done, I turn the lights on and start anealing as the machine is so good there is no need to check further.
The resultant cases have a slightly darkened neck color with a very slight purplish ring at the botton like you would see from new military loaded ammo. Interesting to me is that different makes of brass end up with different neck "color".
Ken says you can use the temperature sticks to check, but I have found the above method works very well for me and accuracy is improved with no softening of the cases below the shoulders.
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donjfred
Guest
Thanks Travelor
Appreciate the response. You've given me some good indicators.
Thanks,
Don
Appreciate the response. You've given me some good indicators.
Thanks,
Don
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worriedman
Guest
I just received my Ken Light machine. I am having trouble getting the torches angled just right. In the directions, there are no clues as to the point that the flames should contact the cases. What are the settings that have worked best for you?
Also, seems that the Bernsomatic torches recommended throw different flames, could be one of the two I purchased is defective, as I can not get it to extend out nearly as far as the other. It seems for me that the first flame does not stay in contact with the case neck long enough, or maybe I just have the tip set wrong.
Any help would be appreciated. I am running a couple of odd duck cases, a .25X.307 AI, and a .225 Winchester AI, both for Encore barrels, and feel I need the annealing for best case formation.
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Kitsap
Guest
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worriedman
Guest
I have, but in the first couple of set ups, I had trouble getting the Tempilac paint to melt on 7 mm Rem. Mag. brass. I picked up a different torch tip this afternoon, and had much better luck. Evidently the first one purchased produced too short a flame. I ran a couple of hundred just prior to now, with very good results.
I knew I was going to like this machine once I figured it out.
I knew I was going to like this machine once I figured it out.
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worriedman
Guest
Annealing and cleaning cases.
Finally getting the Ken Light machine figured out, this from a run of 400 virgin cases of .225 Win for fire forming to AI for my re-chamber Encore Project. Cool thing is, did them all in under 40 minutes, once setup and water bath heated, runs really quick.
Center cartridge is the fire formed .225 Win AI. This batch of 7mm Rem Mag (8 firings), .225 (fire formed only) and .243 Win (5 firings) were annealed, sized and run through my Thumbelers with stainless steel media. Annealing marks are not as apparent, but they were freshly done just prior to cleaning.
Finally getting the Ken Light machine figured out, this from a run of 400 virgin cases of .225 Win for fire forming to AI for my re-chamber Encore Project. Cool thing is, did them all in under 40 minutes, once setup and water bath heated, runs really quick.
Center cartridge is the fire formed .225 Win AI. This batch of 7mm Rem Mag (8 firings), .225 (fire formed only) and .243 Win (5 firings) were annealed, sized and run through my Thumbelers with stainless steel media. Annealing marks are not as apparent, but they were freshly done just prior to cleaning.
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