A little advice, please.

[cbrock]

Good morning, I stumbled onto a rifle, a couple of days ago, for a good price. I'd like opinions as to whether it would be suitable for entry level long range benchrest. It's a 50's era Model 70 with the 28" Bull barrel. The barrel has been set back a half inch and it's been rechambered to 30-338. It's in a Marksman stock and has a International Mark 8 rear sight, with no front sight present. The rifle has been bedded the barrel free floated, except for the first inch. It has also been shortened to 12 1/4" length of pull. (I've got a bunch of freeland adjustable butts that could make the fit right for me, I like longer than standard anyway.) The bore and about everything else except for, handling marks on the wood, is outstanding. I'd probably buy this rifle as an across the course Match rifle, or something, 'cause the price is so good. But is this caliber, and rifle configuration, something that could be used to get off the ground? I realize that that changes would have to be made to make it optimal. But on a shoestring, what do you think? I appreciate any comments you all probably get this kind of question 3 times a day. Much thanks, Charles

 

[alinwa]

opinions.... maybe get the ball rolling

Model 70 would not be my first choice but built properly it can be made to shoot OK. I'll predict it will really start to stumble at 1000 but 600 should be doable. Reason is, you'll be shooting relatively low pressure loads which means your ES will be higher than it should be for 1K.

The belted magnum case is a problem. I'll suggest a Willis Collet Die to approach this issue.

I'll predict the barrel hasn't much life left so once you spend a bunch of money on dies and load workup you'll need a barrel. IMO this is an easy 650 bucks you could be spending on a different rifle. All for one-time use. I can't see you continuing to campaign the 30-338.

If I were you I'd pass and take the cost of this rifle, plus the 650.00, and see if that wouldn't put you into truly competitive rifle.

I'll suggest a 17lb rifle built around the 6.5X47L cartridge in 8" twist.

al

 

[cbrock]

Thanks Al, I appreciate the quick input. Ah, duh, what's es. Your input was exactly the kind I was looking for. I've shot high power service, but as I mature (get older), bench rest looks like something I can do on my own or with a few friends. I've only shot off a bench a couple times, never center fire in comp. I am in the process of joining a Club here in Maine that has a very strong core of bench shooters, and they are very supportive, but I haven't met anyone yet that shoots bench to 600 and 1000. I shot 1000 yds with an M1A, and as a stand-in for the NY State team, one year, at Camp Perry, since then I have wanted to get involved, Trouble was, I lived in NYC, not conducive to long range shooting. I'll get it sorted out though, now that I am in the wide open spaces. Thanks again, Charles

 

[alinwa]

Sorry

ES stands for Extreme Spread, velocity spread or variation that is.....

Most loads, especially those which have been 'thrown' or dispensed from a powder measure, vary somewhat by weight. The result is loads which show velocity variation shot-to-shot.

Since 5fps (Feet Per Second) equals about an inch of vertical dispersion @1000 yards.......... 25fps=5" and 50fps=10", and matches are won by groups in the 4"-6" class....

I would expect your setup to be capable of 25-35fps ES with the resultant 5-8 inches of vertical dispersion built in. This will make it a problem to be competitive.


NOW...... there is a catch. "Tuning" your rifle/load can compensate somewhat for this by moderating the launch angle of your bullets such that the slower rounds are launched higher than the faster ones. So it is possible to still be competitive...... kicker is, you've got to tune and work up your loads at 1000yds, easier said than done.

It is my opinion that the learning curve may well be so steep as to discourage you out the gate. Now, if by "competing" your main goal is to mix with good people and shoot a gun then you're all set, nuttin' wrong wi'dat!

But if you want to win I'll suggest you spend your money elsewise.

"Entry Level" benchrest means different things to different people and for ME it means go with good equipment and try to learn how to shoot. This way you get the occasional win and always know that you ARE in the hunt. If you wanna' hunker down and burn your shoulders and eyeballs up to win, you can.....

Learning to shoot with inferior equipment is supremely frustrating. In fact after about 5 trips the learning is OVER and all you've got left is the frustration. And the excuses.


And the company of some cool guys, but at most one day matches you don't spend all that much time visiting.

hth

al

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Good morning, I stumbled onto a rifle, a couple of days ago, for a good price. I'd like opinions as to whether it would be suitable.........is this caliber, and rifle configuration, something that could be used to get off the ground? I realize that that changes would have to be made to make it optimal. But on a shoestring, what do you think?

Yes.

The 30/338 is a virtual clone of the 308 Norma Mag. There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between the two and many loading manuals recommend using the same load data for both cartridges interchangebly.

I've shot the Norma in a Remington action in IBS 1K competition for five plus years and won or placed well in the 10 and 6 match aggs at Hawks Ridge during that time. Kerry Vincent shoots the 308 Norma and has won the year long aggs and the Hawks Ridge Club Championship several times. Leonard Baitey shoots the Norma in his personal guns and is a top 1K IBS competitor and gunsmith. As far as the Winchester action is concerned, Phillip and Debbie Yott have used them to reach IBS 1000Yd Shooter of the year and Woman Shooter of the year, repeatedly.

If I ever wear out my 308 Norma brass I'll start having my 1000 yd guns chambered in 30/338 and use the 7 Mag Norma and RWS brass I have for that chambering.

Most 30/338 match rifle chambers were cut with reamers that anticipated off the shelf SAMMI spec resize dies. Don't worry about custom dies and changing to another chambering with your next barrel. Just get a Redding, Forster or even Lee full length die set and get to work. Your rifle probably has a 10 twist barrel. If so look to Berger or Sierra 210 gr bullets. If your rifle is a 12 twist it may like 185-190 gr bullets better.

John Widden (Gun Works) supplies a nice 3" bag rider that fits in a handstop rail so you can use a prone stock like yours pretty effectively off a rest.

This setup has more compromises at 600 yds than at 1K but is a great way to "get your feet wet" on a budget in 1K benchrest.

I say go for it!

Keep us posted.

Greg

 

[alinwa]

Greg, this is the pre-64 action with the cutout for the mauser extractor...... still all OK? Can he expect to load as hot as the 700's and push-feed M70's?

al

 

[Greg Culpepper]

Greg, this is the pre-64 action with the cutout for the mauser extractor...... still all OK? Can he expect to load as hot as the 700's and push-feed M70's?

al

I don't know Al.

What pressure a controlled feed M 70 will tolerate compared to a push feed 70 or a 700 is above my pay grade. BUT, I use Norma brass and we all know how soft it (supposedly) is and mine may last forever. I'm just loferin' 210's at 2875 fps with no issues at all.

Does the extractor cut on a 70 expose a dangerous amount of case above the web? You don't have to pound the medium mags as if they are a PPC or 6.5x47. Winchester built them in 264W and 300W mag and those are high intensity cartridges. The Yotts have a great shooting Mauser match gun also (in a big mag). Would that setup offer any advantage compared to a claw extractor M 70?

I don't see an issue here at all. I'd take one to war.

Best regards,

Greg

 

[Bill Ohio]

Good morning, I stumbled onto a rifle, a couple of days ago, for a good price. I'd like opinions as to whether it would be suitable for entry level long range benchrest. It's a 50's era Model 70 with the 28" Bull barrel. The barrel has been set back a half inch and it's been rechambered to 30-338. Charles

If you want to handload for that chambering, have at it. If you're not going to shoot that round, then factor in the cost of rebarreling and decide if it's still a deal.

 

[cbrock]

Thanks

Thanks again Al. Also Bill and Greg. I thank you all, some great info, its interesting stuff. I haven't had access to a computer, 'till a few minutes ago, so I got most all of your input at once, great. Particularly, as you discussed issues amongst yourselves. If we had all been sitting around having a beer or a cup of coffee, I'd have been listening, and asking another question, or asking for clarification. I sat down and did some financial figuring, and decided I could make it work. It doesn't have to be paid off immediately, and is less than $1000, so I gave a deposit earlier today. Just a little penny pinching for a while. I do plan to load for the 30-338. Greg re: the bag rider, Mike Ross at M Werks (?), I believe, makes something similar for the 52D. I have a D and a couple Cs, and I'm working on homemade versions in my spare time. I've taken extensive notes here and will dig further based on your comments. Any other info/advice is more than welcome! Thanks again. Charles ps. Greg, you're not alone, I think some pretty hard Marine Snipers took the 70 to war in southeast Asia. Cheers