3 groove barrel observations

[chino69]

I have a Pac Nor Super Match .308 1 in 12" three groove barrel with approx. 300 rds. through it. After cleaning, I checked out the throat and bore with a Hawkeye borescope and found some interesting observations. The outside edges of the lands show bullet engagement; i.e. they are burnished with a slight copper wash. The concave portion or middle of the land shows little or no copper wash. It appears that the outside edges of the lands are contacting the bullet, wheras the middle section is not. The barrel shoots well, broke in very easy and cleans easy. Anyone else observe this?

I'm going to forward an e-mail to Chris Dichter of Pac Nor to get more info. and will post results.

Lou Baccino

e-mail received 4/28/09 5:17 p.m. from Pac Nor

The following is Chris Dichter's (Pac Nor) response to my e-mail concerning this question:

What you are seeing is an etching ridge that is created when the rifling form the groove.The ridge is displaced jacket material being wiped along the edge of the rifling,this happens with all conventional rifled barrels.Not to worry,the riflings are in full contact. Regards,Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "pac-nor.com" <form@imisp.net>
To: <chris@pac-nor.com>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:17 AM
Subject: Contact Form - .308 Super Match 3 groove

 

[Rustystud]

Pacnor e-mail responses..

Chino:

I had some questions about a 3 groove Pacnor week before last. I went to their web site and sent them an e-mail. I got no response. I made a post here on BRC and did not get so much as a peep from them. I can't say that I am impressed with either their barrels or their customer service.

I wish you better luck.

Nat Lmbeth

 

[chino69]

Pac Nor

Chino:

I had some questions about a 3 groove Pacnor week before last. I went to their web site and sent them an e-mail. I got no response. I made a post here on BRC and did not get so much as a peep from them. I can't say that I am impressed with either their barrels or their customer service.

I wish you better luck.

Nat Lmbeth

Nat,
I followed your post on the .204 Ruger with interest. I have three Pac Nor Super Match barrels and am happy with all three. One is a .243 A.I. 1 in 12" that I began monitoring during break-in and load development. After 80 rds., there was evidence of firecracking in the free bore area which I attributed to the hot loads. The .308 Pac Nor shows no evidence of fire cracking after 300 rds. I monitor all my barrels routinely with a borescope, making notes and observations. For example, my 6mm BR Kreiger is just beginning to show minute examples of firecracking in the freebore area after 300 rds. I have another Kreiger .22-250 A.I. that hasn't been shot yet but will be interesting to compare evidence of firecracking and at what round count it appears vs. the Pac Nor .243 A.I..

I e-mailed Pac Nor and will keep you posted with their answer.

Lou Baccino

 

[Old Gunner]

I have a Pac Nor Super Match .308 1 in 12" three groove barrel with approx. 300 rds. through it. After cleaning, I checked out the throat and bore with a Hawkeye borescope and found some interesting observations. The outside edges of the lands show bullet engagement; i.e. they are burnished with a slight copper wash. The concave portion or middle of the land shows little or no copper wash. It appears that the outside edges of the lands are contacting the bullet, wheras the middle section is not. The barrel shoots well, broke in very easy and cleans easy. Anyone else observe this?

I'm going to forward an e-mail to Chris Dichter of Pac Nor to get more info. and will post results.

Lou Baccino

An old book on gun barrels I found online recently stated that too high a polish on bore surfaces would encourage copper fouling rather than the opposite as we'd normally figure.
Years ago a reprint in an American Rifleman special edition had very early tests on the effects of "Seasoning" on rifle bores. Microscopic pitting was found to catch and hold oils and the oil formed what amounted to microscopic liquid ball bearings. There was very little if any metal fouling and velocities were noticably higher than the same loads in a highly polished bore.

 

[Donald]

Emails, emails,....has anyone thought of just picking up the phone and calling. I found Pac Nor easy to deal with. Course I am old fashioned, I talked to them on the telephone.

 

[montdoug]

I shoot a lot of sub.22 caliber wildcat stuff and have 8 or 9 of their barrels in .17 and .20 cal, all of them Super Match 3 groove Stainless. I couldn't be more pleased!!! I've yet to have a clunker. Service and price has always been great for me.
I too am a phone caller, a lot to be said for human to human contact IMO.
I do know they are a small operation and not overly staffed so possibly that effects the email responses.

 

[chino69]

Pac Nor

I shoot a lot of sub.22 caliber wildcat stuff and have 8 or 9 of their barrels in .17 and .20 cal, all of them Super Match 3 groove Stainless. I couldn't be more pleased!!! I've yet to have a clunker. Service and price has always been great for me.
I too am a phone caller, a lot to be said for human to human contact IMO.
I do know they are a small operation and not overly staffed so possibly that effects the email responses.

They may be a small operation but their service is second to none. I don't like to tie up a business phone line with a question that is not pressing because other customers might be trying to place an order. My question about the three groove wear characteristics I observed (above post) can wait for an e-mail; it's not a pressing question that needs immediate attention. If a customer had a problem with a Pac Nor barrel, I'm certain their issue would receive a timely response. Penny and Chris are very easy to deal with and value their customers.

lou Baccino

 

[montdoug]

They may be a small operation but their service is second to none. I don't like to tie up a business phone line with a question that is not pressing because other customers might be trying to place an order. My question about the three groove wear characteristics I observed (above post) can wait for an e-mail; it's not a pressing question that needs immediate attention. If a customer had a problem with a Pac Nor barrel, I'm certain their issue would receive a timely response. Penny and Chris are very easy to deal with and value their customers.

lou Baccino

I couldn't agree more Lou! I just type so slowly what with two fingers and all that involved correspondence is difficult to say the least and fraught with peril to be sure. Besides I like harassing Penny , she said she was going to have them engrave pink roses on one of my barrels a number of years back and it's been a running joke ever since. Good people!!! Great product!!

 

[montdoug]

[/Quote]
I'm going to forward an e-mail to Chris Dichter of Pac Nor to get more info. and will post results.

Lou Baccino

e-mail received 4/28/09 5:17 p.m. from Pac Nor

The following is Chris Dichter's (Pac Nor) response to my e-mail concerning this question:

What you are seeing is an etching ridge that is created when the rifling form the groove.The ridge is displaced jacket material being wiped along the edge of the rifling,this happens with all conventional rifled barrels.Not to worry,the riflings are in full contact. Regards,Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "pac-nor.com" <form@imisp.net>
To: <chris@pac-nor.com>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:17 AM
Subject: Contact Form - .308 Super Match 3 groove[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting that Lou. Interesting!
I guess not having a bore scope can be a good thing sometimes .
I'm a break-in kinda guy and have as yet to notice any problems with any of my Pac-Nor's even though several are chambered for hyper speed rounds, even those clean easily (knock wood). I've become a strong believer in 3 groove barrels at least for my needs. Also a loyal Pac-Nor customer.

 

[Gene Beggs]

PacNor Barrels?

Good people, good barrels, good service.

The most accurate barrel I ever had was a 6mm Pacnor five groove 13 twist. With Jeff Fowler's 63 grain seven ogive bullets, it was awesome! That was some years ago before I realized that such barrels do not come along every day. If I had another one like that I would save it for the Super Shoot and Nationals only.

Gene Beggs

 

[Pete Wass]

Pac Nor's and 3 groves

I bought an 1-18 PacNor HBR taper barrel several years ago and it is one of the best barrels I have owned to date. Based on that result I purchased another for "Stock" last year.

Some of the most accurate 30BR chambered barrels I have have observed in this part of the world have been Lilja 3 grove. Not all of them but most of them I know of have been Awsome. They also clean up easily, I am told.

The HBR barrel I spoke of; my Smith told me at the time he fitted it that it was one of the best looking barrels he had seen in a while. It still lives and shoots well.

 

[chino69]

Bore scope

Thanks for posting that Lou. Interesting!
I guess not having a bore scope can be a good thing sometimes .
I'm a break-in kinda guy and have as yet to notice any problems with any of my Pac-Nor's even though several are chambered for hyper speed rounds, even those clean easily (knock wood). I've become a strong believer in 3 groove barrels at least for my needs. Also a loyal Pac-Nor customer.[/QUOTE]

You're quite welcome.
I find that sharing information like this helps to educate and inform. I use my bore scope for everything and it's one of the best tools I've ever invested in. My cleaning regimen has changed dramatically as a result of examining a freshly cleaned bore and knowing when to stop. For example, I leave a thin copper wash in my bore instead of trying to remove all of it; that constitutes your fouling shots. I pay close attention to the throat area for evidence of carbon and go after it when it appears.

This is my second three groove Pac Nor and now that it is getting some rounds through it the copper burnishing described on the lands has become more pronounced. Both barrels broke in easy and clean easy.

Lou Baccino

 

[Gene Beggs]

Pacnor rifling

About the rifling in Pacnor barrels; I forgot to mention something. Several years ago, when my five-groove hummer Pacnor barrel quit shooting, I put it on the shelf to use later as a set back to practice chambering, threading etc.

After obtaining a German-built fiberoptic borescope from Bill Gebhardt, I began to examine all of my barrels. This scope is so good, it's like opening the barrel up and literally walking into it; it shows everything. After setting back and rechambering the Pacnor, I discovered something unique about the rifling; the driving side of the lands was normal, but the trailing side was quite a bit lower, somewhat like the Shilen ratchet rifling. I think this may explain why some have had trouble distinguishing lands from the grooves.

Chris? Any comments?

Thanks

Gene Beggs

 

[Big Man]

Good people, good barrels, good service.

The most accurate barrel I ever had was a 6mm Pacnor five groove 13 twist. With Jeff Fowler's 63 grain seven ogive bullets, it was awesome! That was some years ago before I realized that such barrels do not come along every day. If I had another one like that I would save it for the Super Shoot and Nationals only.

Gene Beggs

I have witnessed some screamer groups shot with a few different Pacnor 5 groove barrels. Excellent barrels, great people to work with.

 

[caroby]

Steel properties...

I have witnessed some screamer groups shot with a few different Pacnor 5 groove barrels. Excellent barrels, great people to work with.

Yes, I have a 5 groove .224 in 22PPC that may not be a "hummer" but it's DARN good...! I have not seen the "issues" others have seen...
One thing I have noticed though is the ... Unique nature of the 416R steel
that Chris uses.... Simply its machining property's are "different"... Soft... Well not exactly.... Just not like the formulation that Crucible uses in there 416R steel.... Chips or even "crumbles" on the tooling while machining...Have heard it's leaded 416R...? Don't know.
Just different.

cale

 

[Pete Wass]

I think it's sometimes easy

to have "issues" with about anything. I know that happens with me. If my expectations aren't exceeded I often have "issues". Regarding borescopes: I have a barrel that shoots pretty well; it's a Kreiger. Everything was going great until I got my hands on a borescope. The danged barrel looks like a Moonscape inside it the entire length of it. I freaked! After I came to my senses I realized it didn't matter what it looked like as long as it was capable of winning matches.

That said, I purchased a barrel from a certain maker and had it fitted to a rifle. After several hundred rounds and many combinations tried the rifle was still not competative. The Rifle is competative with another barrel I have for it. I sent the barrel back to the maker and they came up with every excuse in the book as to why it wasn't their fault. Needless to say, I have not purchased any more of their barrels nor do I recommend them. I had another of theirs that shoots great but the problem one didn't/won't.

I Know there are makers who will replace barrels that doesn't shoot competatively and I don't understand why all of them don't. It seems to me that the PR and repeat orders from a satisfied customer would outweigh slithering out of doint the right thing.

 

[chino69]

Borescope fright

Regarding borescopes: I have a barrel that shoots pretty well; it's a Kreiger. Everything was going great until I got my hands on a borescope. The danged barrel looks like a Moonscape inside it the entire length of it. I freaked! After I came to my senses I realized it didn't matter what it looked like as long as it was capable of winning matches.

Pete,
I had a .243 A.I. barrel with over 1700 'hot' Ackley rds. through it. The bore looked like alligator hide but it still shot well. I gave it to a friend of mine who has shot over 500 rds. through it and it's still shooting. It is for a Savage so he was able to set his headspace, etc.

I looked through a brand new Pac Nor .243 A.I. that only had 80 rds. through it and began to see evidence of initial firecracking in the throat area. I'm monitoring my Pac Nor .308 which shows no evidence of firecracking with approx. 300 rds. through it. I have a used Kreiger .22-250 A.I. with significant firecracking that shoots very well. My two 6mm BR barrels show minimal firecracking and shoot very well. The point I'm trying to make is that I'm learning to temper my observations with the borescope with actual performance on target; and that's what really counts. Thus far, I'm not able to equate performance with what the borescope shows and I'm not sure I ever will but I keep observing to see if I can detect a link between the two. I use the borescope to check out brand new barrels and to monitor my cleaning technique and, as far as I can determine, those are the limitations of a borescope. Keeping in mind that the borescope is a nice tool for certain applications will prevent you from getting whacked out over what you see.

Lou Baccino

 

[montdoug]

Regarding borescopes: I have a barrel that shoots pretty well; it's a Kreiger. Everything was going great until I got my hands on a borescope. The danged barrel looks like a Moonscape inside it the entire length of it. I freaked! After I came to my senses I realized it didn't matter what it looked like as long as it was capable of winning matches.

Same thing happened to me with my first chronograph. My old reliable, super accurate .06 load that every book in the world said would be clocking 2,850 fps with a 165 grainer was only doing 2,650ish . Ya suppose any of those deer antelope or elk knew the difference??? Drove me crazy till I came to my senses.
Oh well, I still want a borescope. Time to fixate on something else .