262 or 268 necks for 6mm PPC
- Thread starter marellaj
- Start date
michaeljp65
New member
I just had one rebarreled/chambered in .265 neck
jackie schmidt
New member
I have been shooting a .269 since the early 2000's. The only reason I shoot a .269 is ease in turning brass.
As a note, I have shot no neck turn Norma 6PPC in my .269, and it shot reasonably well. The Norma out of the box typically has about 1/2 thousandth wall thickness variation when checking with a ball micrometer. The loaded round has about .003 overall clearance in my chamber.
As a note, I have shot no neck turn Norma 6PPC in my .269, and it shot reasonably well. The Norma out of the box typically has about 1/2 thousandth wall thickness variation when checking with a ball micrometer. The loaded round has about .003 overall clearance in my chamber.
chriscovell
New member
Is anyone still shooting the .274 neck in matches>
Is anyone still having luck with a no turn neck in competition?
Is anyone still having luck with a no turn neck in competition?
Gene Beggs
Active member
Ol' Beggs Again
When the PPC cartridge was introduced in the late sixties and early seventies Palmisano and Pendell used the SAKO 220 Russian case which had much thinner neck walls than the Lapua and Norma cases in use today. Consequently, it was necessary to turn the necks to around .0080 to .0085 in order to completely clean them up which resulted in chamber neck diameters of .2620 and often .2610.
The serious benchresters and gunsmiths of that day waited sometimes as much as two years for a custom 6PPC reamer from one of the respected gurus and of course, .262 and .261 neck diameters were the standard of the day. Everything rocked along fairly well until Sako quit making the 220 Russian case and introduced the fully formed Sako 6PPC USA cartridge which had a base diameter of .441 instead of the .438 diameter of the original Sako 220 Russian.
Of course, the 'new' Sako USA case still required neck turning for all those .261 and 262 chambers out there and with all those custom reamers in use by the top BR gunsmiths, trouble soon began. The newer sizing dies of the day being made for the Sako USA case wouldn't even touch the base of the old brass and mismatches between chambers and sizing dies caused lots of headaches for us newcomers. I got into benchrest in late '87 and the supply of original Sako 220 Russian cases was just drying up. Those that had hoarded a good supply of them were asking as much as three and four dollars apiece. Bummer!
Finally Lapua, with the help and encouragement of George Kelbly, saved the day and introduced the magnificent Lapua 220 Russian case, which is largely responsible for bringing BR to where it is today.
Current thinking on what is the best neck diameter today for use with the 6PPC cartridge which dominates short-range group shooting?
(Answer) Jackie Schmidt pioneered the .269 which I also use. Boyer and Campbell use .268. Huckeba and Conry both shoot the .268. More and more top shooters are going to the larger necks because of the Lapua 220 Russian case whose necks clean up completely at .0120.
Hope this helps.
Gene Beggs
When the PPC cartridge was introduced in the late sixties and early seventies Palmisano and Pendell used the SAKO 220 Russian case which had much thinner neck walls than the Lapua and Norma cases in use today. Consequently, it was necessary to turn the necks to around .0080 to .0085 in order to completely clean them up which resulted in chamber neck diameters of .2620 and often .2610.
The serious benchresters and gunsmiths of that day waited sometimes as much as two years for a custom 6PPC reamer from one of the respected gurus and of course, .262 and .261 neck diameters were the standard of the day. Everything rocked along fairly well until Sako quit making the 220 Russian case and introduced the fully formed Sako 6PPC USA cartridge which had a base diameter of .441 instead of the .438 diameter of the original Sako 220 Russian.
Of course, the 'new' Sako USA case still required neck turning for all those .261 and 262 chambers out there and with all those custom reamers in use by the top BR gunsmiths, trouble soon began. The newer sizing dies of the day being made for the Sako USA case wouldn't even touch the base of the old brass and mismatches between chambers and sizing dies caused lots of headaches for us newcomers. I got into benchrest in late '87 and the supply of original Sako 220 Russian cases was just drying up. Those that had hoarded a good supply of them were asking as much as three and four dollars apiece. Bummer!
Finally Lapua, with the help and encouragement of George Kelbly, saved the day and introduced the magnificent Lapua 220 Russian case, which is largely responsible for bringing BR to where it is today. Current thinking on what is the best neck diameter today for use with the 6PPC cartridge which dominates short-range group shooting?
(Answer) Jackie Schmidt pioneered the .269 which I also use. Boyer and Campbell use .268. Huckeba and Conry both shoot the .268. More and more top shooters are going to the larger necks because of the Lapua 220 Russian case whose necks clean up completely at .0120.
Hope this helps.
Gene Beggs
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Gene Beggs
Active member
Ol' Beggs again.
The long-range benchresters often use no-turn chambers in their versions of the 6 BR. No one is more anal than the thousand yard shooters and they are shooting some phenomenal groups with no-turn necks.
You would play hell convincing most of the short-range group shooters that benchrest accuracy could be obtained without laborious neck turning but I, for one, know it can be done.
Both the 22 and 6mm Beggs cartridges are available with no-turn chambers of .257 and .274 respectively. Through testing in the tunnel and in actual match conditions, I'll be darned if I can tell a difference. Sure makes case prep simple and easy;
1. Remove the new case from the box.
2. Run the neck over the appropriate expander mandrel.
3. Deburr inside and out with a 'rocket ship.'
4. Prime, load and shoot!
The long-range benchresters often use no-turn chambers in their versions of the 6 BR. No one is more anal than the thousand yard shooters and they are shooting some phenomenal groups with no-turn necks.
You would play hell convincing most of the short-range group shooters that benchrest accuracy could be obtained without laborious neck turning but I, for one, know it can be done.
Both the 22 and 6mm Beggs cartridges are available with no-turn chambers of .257 and .274 respectively. Through testing in the tunnel and in actual match conditions, I'll be darned if I can tell a difference. Sure makes case prep simple and easy;
1. Remove the new case from the box.
2. Run the neck over the appropriate expander mandrel.
3. Deburr inside and out with a 'rocket ship.'
4. Prime, load and shoot!
Michael Huebner
Member
I use a .270 neck in competition. I used to use a .263 neck (changed about 5yrs ago) and have found no issues with the .270 when using Lapua brass
Michael
We have some very perceptive folks in this thread....... may I please interject a thought?
I think the generally accepted reasoning behind close neck clearances stems from two sources, addresses two problems. #1, the close neck match allows neck brass to hold up for a long time because it's not being worked so much and #2 the neck tolerance acts to guide the bullet straight into the rifling. I minimizes "inbore yaw".... And by "close neck tolerance I mean basically anything under 4 thou total clearance, more likely .003 or less.
If I asked 100 accuracy minded folks, or even 1000 whether or not having .003 total neck clearance on a 6PPC was detrimental to accuracy..... I strongly doubt that even ONE of them would reply "yes, that's TOO MUCH CLEARANCE!"
"thin to win" and Jack Neary have done a good job of showing that .003 clearance is fine as regards accuracy.
right??
NOW...... with 3 thou total clearance that means .0015 per side which in my estimation means that that bullet WILL BE JACKED OVER to one side or another by at least a thou and a half when the bigger hammer shoves it down the bore......
"no-turn" specs are generally set around .002 over the loaded round neck diameter, maybe .003.
Now, disregarding the ugly burr on the mouth of new brass can anyone come up with a compelling reason why no-turn necks SHOULDN'T shoot just fine?
(I happen to have 6BR's in 5 neck sizes, 6PPC's in 4 sizes and 300WSM's in 4 sizes so have some pretty strong opinions on the subject and I'll state right out front that I see NO GAIN in thinner necks FWIW)
EXCEPT that, when forming very heavy necks....... like 308 from 30-06 cases there can be a set of issues not related to accuracy.
Them's my thoughts anyway, if anyone cares to comment.
I think the generally accepted reasoning behind close neck clearances stems from two sources, addresses two problems. #1, the close neck match allows neck brass to hold up for a long time because it's not being worked so much and #2 the neck tolerance acts to guide the bullet straight into the rifling. I minimizes "inbore yaw".... And by "close neck tolerance I mean basically anything under 4 thou total clearance, more likely .003 or less.
If I asked 100 accuracy minded folks, or even 1000 whether or not having .003 total neck clearance on a 6PPC was detrimental to accuracy..... I strongly doubt that even ONE of them would reply "yes, that's TOO MUCH CLEARANCE!"
"thin to win" and Jack Neary have done a good job of showing that .003 clearance is fine as regards accuracy.
right??
NOW...... with 3 thou total clearance that means .0015 per side which in my estimation means that that bullet WILL BE JACKED OVER to one side or another by at least a thou and a half when the bigger hammer shoves it down the bore......
"no-turn" specs are generally set around .002 over the loaded round neck diameter, maybe .003.
Now, disregarding the ugly burr on the mouth of new brass can anyone come up with a compelling reason why no-turn necks SHOULDN'T shoot just fine?
(I happen to have 6BR's in 5 neck sizes, 6PPC's in 4 sizes and 300WSM's in 4 sizes so have some pretty strong opinions on the subject and I'll state right out front that I see NO GAIN in thinner necks FWIW)
EXCEPT that, when forming very heavy necks....... like 308 from 30-06 cases there can be a set of issues not related to accuracy.
Them's my thoughts anyway, if anyone cares to comment.
1We have some very perceptive folks in this thread....... may I please interject a thought?
Them's my thoughts anyway, if anyone cares to comment.
As you know my thoughts ain't even worth 2 cents. Given the fact that a lot of different ways can work really well there must be something in common.
How much clearance in freebore area for the bullet. Can the firing pin move the case forward any when it hits the primer? Does the case expand fast enough to beat the bullet moving very far?
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Gene Beggs
Active member
Wilbur, I agree completely with you on this one. It's just a matter of personal preference. One seems to work as well as another as long as the shooter understands how to manage it. With the ever increasing availability of good, bushing-type sizing dies and chamber reamers one can have about anything he wants including no-turn which is looking better all the time. If there is no difference in accuracy, why put yourself through all that hassle of neck turning?
Later,
Gene Beggs
Gene Beggs
Active member
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
But,
The well known centerfire/group benchrest shooter, Tony B, who has 3 times as many HOF points as the second place HOF shooter shoots a 0.263" neck....
Tell us how your neck diameter is better!!
..
The well known centerfire/group benchrest shooter, Tony B, who has 3 times as many HOF points as the second place HOF shooter shoots a 0.263" neck....
Tell us how your neck diameter is better!!
..
Gene Beggs
Active member
Here comes ol' Beggs again,
Jerry, I may be mistaken but I thought Tony Boyer shot a .268 neck. Oh well, Tony could shoot just as well with anything. He is a legend the likes of which we will never see again and he's still up there at the cutting edge. Incredible !
As Wilbur said in his post number four of this thread, "I swear that I don't think it matters what the neck size is."
Well said Wilbur, I agree.
Gene Beggs
Jerry, I may be mistaken but I thought Tony Boyer shot a .268 neck. Oh well, Tony could shoot just as well with anything. He is a legend the likes of which we will never see again and he's still up there at the cutting edge. Incredible !
As Wilbur said in his post number four of this thread, "I swear that I don't think it matters what the neck size is."
Well said Wilbur, I agree.
Gene Beggs
GENE, i am not saying it ain't so, i just know no one that shoots no turn in long range bench rest.
my dasher is a turned neck as is my 300 win mag.
my 2000 yard br rifles are/will be both neck turned.
if nothing else neck tension goes to crap with unturned necks.
which affects down range point of impact big time.
my dasher is a turned neck as is my 300 win mag.
my 2000 yard br rifles are/will be both neck turned.
if nothing else neck tension goes to crap with unturned necks.
which affects down range point of impact big time.
Gene Beggs
Active member
Retired, I don't remember no-turn necks being mentioned here on BR Central but I've read several times on the 6mmbr.com website where shooters have set records with them and their versions of the 6BR. I wish I had the computer skills to search the articles out and present them here, but sadly I do not. I'm doing good to be able to post here on the forum.
No-turn cases are not for everyone; most benchresters wouldn't think of it, but I've sure had fun experimenting with it. I'm sort of a myth buster at heart and although I'm no Tony Boyer, I've had a fair amount of success during the past thirty years. I get bored following the leaders and often venture off on my own looking for better ways of doing things. Usually I fail, but you would be surprised with things I've discovered on some of my 'wild goose chases.'
Thanks for posting. I value your input.
Gene Beggs
No-turn cases are not for everyone; most benchresters wouldn't think of it, but I've sure had fun experimenting with it. I'm sort of a myth buster at heart and although I'm no Tony Boyer, I've had a fair amount of success during the past thirty years. I get bored following the leaders and often venture off on my own looking for better ways of doing things. Usually I fail, but you would be surprised with things I've discovered on some of my 'wild goose chases.'
Thanks for posting. I value your input.
Gene Beggs[/QUOTE
Thanks for posting your findings and thoughts. You are a true gentleman.
Thanks for posting. I value your input.
Gene Beggs[/QUOTE
Thanks for posting your findings and thoughts. You are a true gentleman.
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Gene, read Tonys book . He mentions. several times,he and Fays shoot a 0.263" neck.
.
jackie schmidt
New member
I had read that several years back, Mr Boyer had started shooting a .268 neck.
His book has been out quite a few years now. I'm sure he has changed a few things.
Anybody know what Wayne Campbell uses? If I had the notion to immulate someone at this time, I think he would be my first choice.