.224 80grs comming apart

C

crazycooydog

Guest
I would like to start by saying this is a very informative site, I have learned many things here.

On to the problem!

I will list as much of the known info relating to my delema:

Rem 700 action 22-284 27" ss barrle
2700 ft above sea
-15 to -20 deg ce
this load was developed for winter yote hunting
I have shot mostly nosler and seirra 80 gr match bullets with this gun.
Right from the start the 75gr A max's would come apart at about 3600-3650 fps. I settled on a 49.3 gr of re19 pushing the 80 gr bullets at about 3550-3575fps, and it shot good( not a bench gun) but consisently in the .5 moa or less out too 500 yards, and hover around .75-1moa at 700 yards...most likely cuse of MY shooting abillitly is why it would drop off at the longer range.

now the problem:

I have not shot the gun for about 4.5 years and now affter pulling it out and thourghly cleaning it and off to the range. All starts well with good groups, then as we move back to 300 yards only one of 3 rounds hit the target.....this is with the noslers. Affter checking the velocity it shows it at 3525fps( right where it should be) we then reload 5 rounds .5 grs less and shoot with the same results at 100 yards, only one hits the target with one hitting side ways. we then try some seirra 80 gr matchs and 51grs H4831 all is fine it's shooting sub .5 moa groups again @ 3525fps. off we go coyote hunting and I take a few yotes at 570 yards with no problems,over the next three days I shoot 13 yotes at different yards with the longest one being 705 yards..Yess all is great.

I get back to the city, I wand to recheck my zeros as the elevation is higher here and the temp is warmer...4500 ft above sea and +10 deg cel.

I get to the range and start at 100 yards and find that it's only about .75 higher than I would like, so I readjust and move back to 350 yards and shoot.

I shot 5 rounds and only one hits the target...:mad:

I pack up and head home fumming about all this... What could be wrong?
I clean the PI$$ out off it again thinking this could be the problem.

Two days later I go out again but first thing in the morning when it's a bit cooler( about -8 deg cel), on the way to the range I put 6 rounds in my shirt pocket, and once I get to the range I put 10 rounds in a snow bank.:confused:

I start shooting the first cc round hits low .25moa and right .25 moa the next 4 rounds make one large ragged hole:confused:...or did the all hit the target I'm thinking.. so i start shooting again with a different poa for each shot.....all is great it's shooting just like it should. I shoot a total of 15 rounds and all is still good. a couple of other guys there just happen to have a chorny with then and I shoot three rounds through it only to see 3499,3489,3493 fps.
Really confused now!!!

I wait about an hour till the sun gets up and it starts warming up( about 0or +5 deg cel), I shoot another 15 rounds back to back at about 1rd/15sec and still all are shooting good. I let the gun cool for about an hour, and start shooting again temp now is about +10 deg cel. The third round didnt make the target, fouth did but 5th did not. I now get 5 rounds out of the snow and shoot them and all five make the target. I take three out of ammo box and shoot them and only one gets to the target again.

At this point the gun may be fouled (45 rds) so i take it and clean and let cool for about half to three quarters of an hour. I start with 4 round from ammo box and 2 of four hit the target I shoot one more set of four and only one hits. I then shoot the other 5 from the snow bank and all 5 hit. Of the 6 rnds from my pocket not one hits the target....

What could be the problem?
I don't believe it's from heat, this thing has never seen speed fireing, it's never seen summer shooting ,it's never been more than slightly warm to the touch, the most it's seen is groups of three at a time and only slow fired,like 3 rds per 10-12 mins,then cool for at least 15 mins befor shooting any more.
there is about 1100 rnds through this barrle.. is this what happens when the barrle is shot out!
I wouldnt think so, my 22-250 had no rifling for about 2 inches of the barrle and it would still shoot 1moa @ 300

This 22-284 barrle looks rough in the throght, could this be the problem.. I have thought of having it set back to hopfully get another 400-600 rnds though it.
sorry for the long winded post just wanted to give all the facts.
Any thoughts would be helpful!

Thanks
 
What is your rate of twist?

And when you say bullets are "coming apart" do you mean blowing up in the air? And how do you know? You also mention bullets keyholing (hitting sideways)

Typically bullets "come apart" or blow up from TOO MUCH twist whereas bullets lose stability or keyhole from TOO LITTLE twist...... two separate issues.

Also typically, bullets will shoot good groups right down to the ragged edge of stability and bullets typically lose stability as temp drops. (For instance I've got a rifle which will shoot bugholes at 70degrees but the bullets will turn sideways and head off for parts unknown when the temp drops into the 50's.....)

It sounds to me as though you may be shooting a 10" or even 12" twist when your bullets would like an 8" twist.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your problem.

al
 
Simple answer: use a smaller volume cartridge.

The bullets you're referring to were never intended to be fired at such velocities. They were designed for rifles chambered in .223 Remington, for use out to ~600 yards. Some shoot them out to 1000, but the loads still leave the barrel at less than 3000 FPS (and that's with a 30" long barrel).

Extra velocity generates more heat, and more spin. Combined, this is what makes bullets come apart.
 
Opps missed one of the most important details... It's a 1-9 twist 6 grove.

I have found peices of jacketing in the snow between me and the target,( I know they are from my gun as we were shooting at my buddys place and in the fresh snow)they look like they have been peeled off the lead. I all so found a piece of lead that appears to have been streached in the center portion.I will try post pics.

My buddy said he could see poofs of black or gray smoke at about 50-75 yards. I assumed that this was the bullets comming apart.

Yes I understand that the match bullets are not made to go more than 3200fps....Many guys ARE shootting them at 3500-3600fps in different wildcats though. And this gun has allways shot them...lol TILL NOW

I'm thinking it has something to do with the friction factor..I have used molly and naked rounds both with the same results.... If I freeze the rounds all seems to be ok...Which would indicate too hot of loads.

223 shotting at 2800fps in a 8 twist 24" barrle, is very close to the same rps,as a 22-284 at 3500fps in a 9 twist 27" barrle...with the exception to friction.
 
I had the same trouble with my 22-284. Anything over 3450 with a cut rifle barrel would make them come apart. Barrel won't last long anyway. You can get 3400 with less case capacity and the barrels will last longer.
Butch
 
yes Butch.

I think I may try a 22-243 next I would think I could get 3350-3400 with the 80 grs with less powder.
 
I have a shortened version of the 22-284 that is .250 short. I can get 3600 fps. from 80 gr. SMK with no problems of blowing bullets. It's an 8"twist Hart. I suspect your problem is hard carbon fouling. Normal copper cleaners won't touch hard carbon fouling, you need some GM top engine cleaner.
 
this is what is odd, the warmer temps is where it's showing the problems.I would think it would show this sort of things in colder temps.. Being a 1-9 twist MAYBE it's tumbling instead if comming apart... how can one tell for sure?

It's possible that it is carbon, right from the start I have cleaned this barrle at about every 20 -25 rounds. I have used mostly Butchs bore shine, some benchrest,and sweets twice. Normaly clean with a jag and patches,and every second cleaning (50ish rnds)with a brush, 10 strokes total. this last time is the only time I have used JB Paste.

As previously mentioned,I think I have realy babied this barrle...not shooting very many at one time, its not be heated up ever, all ways shot in below 0 deg celsious temps.

I will try and use some GM cleaner and see what happens.. If it don't work I guess it's no big lose.. most have said it WOULDN"T shot affter 500-700 rounds.

I wonder if it would be worth trying to shoot some 65 game kings @ about 3800fps...lol if nothing else this would burn it out totaly.
 
crazycooydog said:
this is what is odd, the warmer temps is where it's showing the problems.I would think it would show this sort of things in colder temps.. Being a 1-9 twist MAYBE it's tumbling instead if comming apart... how can one tell for sure?

It's possible that it is carbon, right from the start I have cleaned this barrle at about every 20 -25 rounds. I have used mostly Butchs bore shine, some benchrest,and sweets twice. Normaly clean with a jag and patches,and every second cleaning (50ish rnds)with a brush, 10 strokes total. this last time is the only time I have used JB Paste.

As previously mentioned,I think I have realy babied this barrle...not shooting very many at one time, its not be heated up ever, all ways shot in below 0 deg celsious temps.

I will try and use some GM cleaner and see what happens.. If it don't work I guess it's no big lose.. most have said it WOULDN"T shot affter 500-700 rounds.

I wonder if it would be worth trying to shoot some 65 game kings @ about 3800fps...lol if nothing else this would burn it out totaly.
Click to expand...


Why not try the 69 grain SMK's and get back to us. I can't get to heavy weight bullets in my 10 twist at the higher velocities in my.22-6mmAI with out the bullets coming apart. I haven't had problems even down to -20f with my use of 69 grain bullets. Drive them fast with as much pressure as your rifle can safely handle, I predict you will be happy.:D
 
crazycooydog said:
this is what is odd, the warmer temps is where it's showing the problems.I would think it would show this sort of things in colder temps.. Being a 1-9 twist MAYBE it's tumbling instead if comming apart... how can one tell for sure?

It's possible that it is carbon, right from the start I have cleaned this barrle at about every 20 -25 rounds. I have used mostly Butchs bore shine, some benchrest,and sweets twice. Normaly clean with a jag and patches,and every second cleaning (50ish rnds)with a brush, 10 strokes total. this last time is the only time I have used JB Paste.

As previously mentioned,I think I have realy babied this barrle...not shooting very many at one time, its not be heated up ever, all ways shot in below 0 deg celsious temps.

I will try and use some GM cleaner and see what happens.. If it don't work I guess it's no big lose.. most have said it WOULDN"T shot affter 500-700 rounds.

I wonder if it would be worth trying to shoot some 65 game kings @ about 3800fps...lol if nothing else this would burn it out totaly.
Click to expand...



OK OK

"Coming apart" and "tumbling" are on opposite ends of the spectrum! Your bullets are stable, they WILL NOT tumble at any temp from a 9" twist.....I didn't have this valuable hunk of info 1st go-round.

You found bullet jacket frag's and your bullets go goofy as temp RISES.......

As temps RISE, velocity also RISES ;) See where I'm going with this? IMO, Your load is too hot for the bullet. And what you saw in your target as a "sideways bullet" was no doubt a hunk of jacket or an empty core which happened to pop yet still hit the target.

al
 
Big Al!
I will try some smaller gr bullets, but it won't be any time soon, as I need to get back to my reload bench...which is 4 hours away, and I won't be able to make the trip till early feb.

alinwa

that is what I suspect.. to hot for warmer temps. however the chrony read 3500fps @ the outside temp of +5c ...( this load chronyed @ 3525 in -20c temp) so the higher temp didn't seem to effect the fps as much as I would have suspected, It went slower instead of faster.It obviously has more friction though.

I am just trying to find my link cable to get the pics off my camera. I will post pic of lead found before the target. Apone looking at one peice of jacketing it apears that one of the groves looks CRACKED compared to the others on the same peice of jacketing.
 
here are som pics!

The lead out of a 80 gr seiarra match.

And part of the jacket, bolth were found about 40-50 yard from muzzle.
I did have one other peice that I couldn't find, but it looked like it had been peeled in a circular motion from the tip to the base, it was a compleat jacket.

the lead looks like it had been streached, like it had been pulled from both ends.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF0053.jpg
    DSCF0053.jpg
    7.6 KB · Views: 314
  • DSCF0054.jpg
    DSCF0054.jpg
    8.1 KB · Views: 276
Berger now makes an 80 gr. VLD with a thick jacket. Might be worth a try.
 
tryed them.. they make dust too./ the only ones that seem to have a chance are the seiarras. which is odd.. Im thinking I may have to shoot some lighter game kings. time will tell.
 
too many rpms...

At 3550 fps with a 1:9 twist the bullet exits with barrel with 284,000 rpm!!! I am shooting a 1:8 PacNor with my 22-250AI and I can make 80SMK explode at anything greater than 300,000 rpm. If I slow them down to 270-275,000 or slower everything is fine. I have heard that the cut rifling barrel are worst because that yield a sharper engraving in the bullet. Makes sense to me. All of my fast twist in 22 and 6mm are button barrels but all bullets have a limitation. I would think the thicker wall Bergers would help.

Have you verified your actual twist with a cleaning rod? Some are not quite as claimed.

Luck with your hotrod, tiny
 
tiny68
what kind of velocities are you getting with the 80 grs in your 22-250 ai..

Im not sure if my barrle is cut or button...I think its cut though...Its a Gailard

Yes I know its a 1-9 twist..

I have just ordered the final finish kit from Tubb, if the GM cleaner son't work I will try to lap it and see what happens.

I realy want to shoot the heavys.. they buck the wind a bit better.

I have all so thought about maybe trying a 6.5-284 with the 142s for the long range stuff..
 
Well I just recived my gun back from the gunsmith, and he had a look with a borescope and tells me the problem is most likely from very bad fire cracking. Which has made the bore very rough, he did mention that the throat looks very good for 1100 rounds through it.. I'm thinking of trying the Tubb's final finish system and see what hapens.
 
Asa Yam said:
Simple answer: use a smaller volume cartridge.

The bullets you're referring to were never intended to be fired at such velocities. They were designed for rifles chambered in .223 Remington, for use out to ~600 yards. Some shoot them out to 1000, but the loads still leave the barrel at less than 3000 FPS (and that's with a 30" long barrel).

Extra velocity generates more heat, and more spin. Combined, this is what makes bullets come apart.
Click to expand...

I agree. The bullets are not up to the job and are overheating as they go down range. Also the barrel might be engraving the bullet too deeply especially if it is a cut rifled barrel and is rough .
If you have a lot of these bullets left try moly coating them and dont clean the barrel until the days shooting is done.
This could just make the difference for the bullet to survive the air drag heating and protect the thin jacket a bit from too deep engraving .
HBN coating might work also but I have a suspicion that moly will protect the jacket better and fill in some of the pot holes . Worth a try if you don't mind moly in your barrel.
Geez 1100 rounds and its stuffed. I think you need to use a bullet coating all the time on any bullet to try and get some barrel life .
I guess that the price you pay for 22 that does 3500 FPS .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Butch!
Yes I think that is what I will do. But I'm not sure a set-back alone will fix the problem. If it's as rough as the smith says,I think I may still have problems. If I fire lap it and it fixes the bullets from comming apart then I may get another 500 rounds out of it before I have to toss it. That would be two more seasons at the rate I normaly shoot it.
This barrle dosen't owe me anything, it has gone longer than expected. I was told that it would be toast affter about 700rds.

J. Valentine

I have used molly and it did the same thing.
A 22-284 is only expected to last 500-700 rds... as its such a overbore wildcat.
Is there something about molly that is :confused:BAD?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top