.223 load ideas

J

jaybic

Guest
Hello,

I am in the process of working up a load for my sons new coyote rifle and would like some advice/ideas. It is a Savage 10 in .223 and I have installed a new sharp shooter suppy trigger and 6x18 VX II Leupy. It has a 22 inch barrel and I believe it to be a 1:10 twist but being that it is an older non-accu trigger model the twist may be 1:12 so I am not sure. I am starting with brand new Win brass and gm205s(I have other primers as well). I have the following bullets and powders to choose from.

Bullets:
50 and 55gr Vmax
53gr Hornady match Hp
50 and 55gr Nosler bt
50 and 55 gr Sierra Blitzkings
52gr Sierra hpbt match
52gr Berger Varmint match

Powders
Varget
H335
H332
Blc2
748
760
RL12
IMR 4198
h4895

I have an email from Walt Berger in which he gives me a col of 2.260(1.920 to ogive using a stoney point bullet comparator). I get a measurement of 2.034 to the rifling and that puts me over 100 thou off the rifling which seems like a lot. Should I run them up closer to the rifling than that? My intent is not to second guess Walt Berger of all people but it just seems like a long way off the rifling. I was originally intending to start all bullets at .10 off the rifling and make adjustments from there but I am open to any and all ideas or recipes that might save time/effort and bullets in the process.

I have also heard of people using a ladder test for load development but I have never tried it and not quite sure how to go about it. I know I have seen and read that the "go to/starter load" for a .308 is 44gr of Varget and a 168gr Sierra Matchking. I have heard it said that if a .308 wont shoot this combo, it wont shoot anything(of course there are exceptions but you get the idea. Is there any similar go-to load for a .223 that I should start with?

Thanks for any ideas that you may have. Have a great day!

Jamie
 
H4895 should work very well with any of the bullets listed. Varget does best for me with heavier bullet, 69-70 gr+.
To be honest there isn`t a poor component choice on your list IMO. Letting the rifle tell you which bullet it prefers is the best way to pick one. Once you decide the rifle likes a bullet the powder used isn`t as critical in my limited experience and becomes part of tuning the load.
 
walts figure is just max coal for 223....
thier powder charges would be based on that lenght and thus case volume.
the ladder for 223 would be 10 steps in .3 increments.
for this to mean anything you really need a scale that will do less then plus or minus .1
748 is too temp sensitive in my opinion
i have never had luck with varget and light bullets
2520 is a good choice, as is 2200 and 2230.
weight sort the brass...after a full prep.....it has as much as 4.9 gr variation( yes i weighed 500 pcs from one lot)
4895 has a good rep, but it is a pain to work with in small cases.
mike in co
 
You gun is a 1 in 9 twist, The older 110 long actions 223 built long ago was 1 in 14 twist. The guns built after that have a 1 in 9 or 1 in 7 twist barrel. The barrels are makerd for the 1 in 7, but not marked in the 1 in 9's. You have a lot of good powders to shoose from. I have had the best luck with H4895 and h322. H335 and varget would be good choices as well.

You should have good luck with 52gr Bergers, SMKs, and the 53 Honaday, as well as the 50gr V max.

Dont be afraid to try the heavier 68 and 69 gr Hornady, and Sierra's, also the 77 gr SMks do a good job in a 1 in 9 twist.
 
I've got a Savage 12 in .223 that gives at least coyote level accuracy with 75 gr Hornady HPBT's and H4895, Varget. or RL-15. I'm not sure how they'd work on coyotes though, they might just poke a hole and leave you with a wounded coyote. I've had good luck with 50 gr Ballistic Tips, and with the fast twist the 55's might work well too. I've found that powders that seem a little slow for the size of the case work well in the .223 with H4895 and RL-15 working well with bullets down to 52/53 gr and giving good velocity. Mostly those powders require nearly a case full of powder too. In my 12 I tried seating heavy bullets close to the rifling, but it liked them jumped a fair amount, so maybe your son's rifle will like them jumped. Try whatever bullet you choose seated out as far as possible then seat them back into the case in increments of 10 or 20 thou to see what it likes. You may find that the rifle likes them 60 thou off the rifling.
 
Thanks for the replies fellas, it helps quite a lot. Now for a follow up question. When seating the 52gr bergers my measurement to the rifling is 2.034 so I seated the bullet .10 off the rifling which is 2.024 and that only puts it about 3/32nds of an inch inside the case. Is that enough?
 
Jamie, If used as a "Field" rifle I'd like a bit more bullet in the neck,(neck tension will also play a part of this). The last thing you want is powder all up in the action because a bullet came out.
 
Jaybic: First let me comment on C.O.A.L. - I have been shooting groups with Rifles for 50 years now.
C.O.A.L. is JUST ONE factor/variable in obtaining/searching for accuracy from a particular Rifle -especially in Factory/Hybrid Rifles.
In other words over the decades I have often obtained excellent accuracy with bullets that indeed do jump 1/10th of an inch before encountering the leades of the rifling!
On some occassions these large "jumps" to the rifling are mandated by magazine box length and sometimes just because thats where they shot best.
Now to your load recommendation inquiry for your 223 Remington Rifle.
A while back I was shooting my newish Remington XR-100 Rifle in caliber 223 Remington - it has a Leupold 8.5x25 variable scope on it and is all stock other than a trigger adjustment.
Using Berger 52 grain bullets, Federal 205 Match primers, LaPua brass and H 335 powder I shot the smallest group (5 shots at 100 yards) that I have ever fired with a factory stock (non 40X!) Rifle, EVER.
That group measured .121".
I highly recommend those components be tested in your 223 Rifle.
You have most of them on your list already but if you ever come across some LaPua 223 brass I suggest you give them a try and see how they work out for you.
Best of luck with your 223.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
Jaybic, lets revisit your original statement. 2.260" COAL equal to 1.920" Stoney Point.
Another measurement with the Stoney Point is 2.034" to the rifling.
This would be Stoney Point measurements.
2.034" - 1.920 = .114" Your statement of 100 thou off is equal to .100 (these are the same)
.010" is Ten thousanths.
Just trying to understand what you are trying to achieve.
Centerfire
 
26.5 grs H 335, Sierra 52 MK works very well indeed in my 223 cooper. 332 was just as good, as was benchmark. But it seems to come down to that 335 load that is the most consistant all the time.

DR
 
Jamie

Seating a bullet .10 off the rifling is just not possible with my Model 10, and one of the last things you want is the bullet coming out if you need to extract a loaded round. Creates quite a mess. The good news is that my rifle shoots very well with a Sierra 52 HPBT MatchKing with a COAL of 2.250" - what my Sierra manual suggests for that specific bullet in a bolt action. The VMax 50 should do well, also. I'd guess that almost any of the bullets you listed will be fine.

H322 and IMR 4198 are good choices for bullet weights you listed. Also 4895.

If you need a way to determine the twist rate of your barrel send me a PM or email.
 
Jamie,

If you don't have Tony Boyer's book. Buy it. It will save you a ton of money in the long run. Read the load development section. I've tried many ways over the last three decades and when I was showed his method about ten years ago....lights went on. I didn't understand why for several years but the "it works" is all that really matters.

Oh, as far as powders, etc. Start with H322 and H4895. Also the berger, v-max or sierra match. If you can't get it to shoot ok with any of these, it won't. Once you find the sweet spot with the seating depth, trying other powders becomes easy.

Hovis
 
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I killed a lot of coyotes wth a 55g Bullet behind 23.5g of H322 and 26.0-26.5g of 748. My partner used a heavy charge of H335 with a 55g bullet, we shot all kinds of 55g Bullets.

I would urge you to use a thick cup primer such as a Rem 7 1/2 to keep your primers from blanking if you have an enlarged firing pin hole in the bolt.

I always liked to use a fairly tough bullet such as a 55g Sierra of some kind, but the 55g Sierra lead tip blitz makes one whale of a coyote bullet. I had a few splashes with 50g Nosler ballistic tips on shoulder blades and hip joints, but the 55g Nosler Ballistic tip proved to be an excellent bullet, second to Sierra lead tips and HP's, however. You have to remember that many coyotes will be shot on the run or at the trot, coming in to you and moving away at quartering angles, use bullets that will penetrate and get to the vitals and not blow up on a rib. Also, recently I found out that the 55g Hornady Sp is very accurate in my custom 223's and 223 AI's...it also would make a great coyote bullet.

The only problem that I would see with your son's rig is the choice of scope. I have hunted coyotes since the mid 70's, they move in fast and close. If this is his first yote rifle, then the 3-9's, 4-16's would be a much better choice, and the Bushnell 4-16 model 4200 is outstanding. Depending on the cover you will be hunting in, a 2-7 may be a great choice, but I opted for the 3-12's Burris over the 2-7 Leupold for really close cover shooting. The 6-18 has very poor field of view, and 6x is just too much for running shots under 50 yards.

If you want to get the very most out of your 223, N-135 with a 55g bullet will stomp all over 3450 fps with amazing accuracy, use tough brass and thick cup primers.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the replies fellas. We are just done getting the rifle bedded. From the factory it was just an action bolted in to a wood stock with no bedding at all but we got it glass bedded. The scope is only on for load testing purposes and it will wear Vari x II 3x9 when the testing is done.

I did try 25 grains of H335 and the 50 vmax and got a sticky bolt lift so I backed it down 1 grain. Same with 24 grains of H322, just a bit sticky. All loads were tested with gm 205s and brand new win cases and were seated .10 off and then I tried them again at .20 off and no luck. I had to tap the bolt to the rear with my hand to get it to open so those loads in that rifle must be a bit hot but by the book, they should be ok. wonder if thats indicative of something else. Anyway, nothing was showing any level of acceptable accuracy so far(best is about 1.5 inches for 5 shots). That could have been the bedding thing, but now that that issue is corrected, I am going back to the range with a half dozen more loads including the slowed down versions of what I originally tried and see if it comes around I guess.

Anyway, thanks again for all the help and ideas. Its exactly the quality advice I knew I would find here. Take care,

Jamie
 
jaybic...I don't have any Berger 52's,but I do use Sierra 53's in my Savage LRPV. Base to ogive measurement is 1.821" on a loaded round using digital calipers with Davidson attachments from Sinclair,Intl. This figure of 1.821" allows the bullet to JUST touch the lands(no jump). 1.5" groups is not satisfactory...should be at least around 3/4" or less. Be sure the action is not binding or bowing due to action screws too tight or uneven torque. Good luck.....gpoldblue
 
Let us know if the bedding helped

Keep us posted on whether the bedding helped.

I did try 25 grains of H335 and the 50 vmax and got a sticky bolt lift
Click to expand...

What is the C.O.A.L and how far is the vmax in the case?

Something doesn't seem right with 1.5" groups with a Savage .223! The bolt lift of a Savage is something to be desired... Are the primers showing pressure signs? What did you determine the twist to be, and about how many rounds have been shot through the barrel?
 
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again telling us that the load is 10 or 20 off the lands does not tell us the coal.......so tell us how long the round is.
neither load you listed SHOULD be over pressure...but since we do not know oal....no way to say for sure.
did you chronoghraph these loads ???
oal and chrono..help alot....
and did you ever determine the twist ??

mike in co
 
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