22-250 vs 22-250ai

J

jaybic

Guest
Hello,

Can anyone tell me the advantages and disadvantages of making my Savage 22-250 into a a 22-250ai? I would like to shoot a 55 grain Vmax or similar ballistic tip bullet at coyotes and I am not concerned about barrel wear or throat erosion. I am just trying to decide if the ballistic edge is worth it. My gunsmith charges 75.00 to do the conversion and I know I have to get new dies but what I really want to know is the down range performance difference in terms of speed, inherant accuracy or lack thereof and terminal ballistics. This is a dedicated coyote rifle and short of moving up to a 22-6 or a straight up 243/6mm, it is what I have to work with. I also intend to max out my load to what ever pressure and best accuracy allow.

Does it make sense to find a 55gr bullet my rifle likes first? I am thinking that if it wont deliver excellent accuracy as a standard 250 with 55gr bullets why would it shoot any better as an AI version using the same barrel? Or could it? I dont know I guess.

Thanks for any insight on the matter fellas. I surely appreciate it.

Jamie
 
If you're not going to be doing a lot of fairly rapid fire shooting the .22-250 AI will likely give a little edge with 55 gr bullets over the standard version. It might be an idea to try the barrel with 55 gr V Max or Ballistic Tips, but if it's a 1 in 14 twist barrel it might not like the Ballisitc Tips which are enough longer than "normal" 55's that some slower twist barrels don't like them. The AI might move them along faster so that they'd stabilize though.

An alternative would be to get a 1 in 12 prefit barrel from SharpShooter Supply (I think they do .22-250 AI;s) or another 1 in 12 prefit and have your gunsmith do the chambering job on it. Another alternative would be a 6 mm-250 (standard or AI) on your Savage action with 1 in 12 twist that would shoot 55-75 gr bullets nearly as fast as a .243, and be a little different than a run of the mill .243.
 
I shoot the 6/250AI which uses the 22-250 case necked up to 6mm. Case shrinkage is quite a bit during fire forming (over .04"), so I ended up using .243 Winchester brass as a parent case. Your Savage probably came with the 1:12 twist barrel, but a few have the 1:9 twist. It has no trouble handeling the longer 55 grain bullets, and even works with the 53 grain V-max (.29 BC). Personally I see little need for the 22-250AI other than case life.

Back to the 6/250AI a sec. My barrel is a fast twist (1:8) 26" long. It'll push a 105 grain Amax at 3050fps without pressure signs. But if I were to build another barrel in that caliber, I think I'd do it at 24" in length with a 1" strait contour. I doubt I'd loose 75fps, think it'd shoot better. But alas my next six will be a 6BG (.224BG???)
gary
 
I had a 22-250 AI I load hot hot. I'd say 8% more velocity. But I hated fireforming brass. All in all if you can't hit it with a standard 22-250 then you still won't beable to with the AI. Why ? Because there is more to hitting a target then increasing the velocity.
 
Do your have a lot of coyote hunting experience? The reason that I ask is that over the years, I have listened to friends plan long range "coyote rifles" only to learn, later, that the fellows that I met with the most experience were attaining their success with careful use of camo and calling, and that with skillful use of these tools, were taking their shots at relatively close range. One fellow, that has run into situations where more reach was needed, told me that a straight .243 with 85 gr. V Maxes worked very well for the long shots.
 
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Boyd Allen said:
Do your have a lot of coyote hunting experience? The reason that I ask is that over the years, I have listened to friends plan long range "coyote rifles" only to learn, later, that the fellows that I met with the most experience were attaining their success with careful use of camo and calling, and that with skillful use of these tools, were taking their shots at relatively close range. One fellow, that has run into situations where more reach was needed, told me that a straight .243 with 85 gr. V Maxes worked very well for the long shots.
Click to expand...

I shoot most of my coyotes with a .223. Barrel is 20" long, and the 55 grain Vmax does the job. But on the otherhand the vast majority of dogs are shot under 250 yards. I at one time used a 6mm remington, and it would really reach out. With the 6mm I liked the 80 gr. Sierra Blitz. I've made very few shots over 500 yards, and they just are not needed.
learn to use a mouse squeaker
gary
 
Thanks for the replies fellas.

My rifle is 1:12 twist so I think I am ok there. I am actually a very avid coyote hunter/caller and have been hard at it for 10 years or so. I hunt alot in western North Dakota and participate in calling tournaments with some very talented(I do not count myself among them) coyote hunters and ADC guys. While my goal is always getting the coyote(s) as close as possible and making it a chip-shot(as much as it ever can be anyway) but It doesnt always work out that way. Many times winners and losers are decided by the guys that can connect regularly on hung up coyotes that are standing out at 3,4 or 500 yards out. I have even gone so far in my quest for accuracy improvement that I traced out the form of a coyote that I killed last fall into a piece of 1/2 inch plate steel, cut it out with a plasma cutter and made a free standing coyote target sihouette(sp?) for realistic practice before trying it on live coyotes in an effort to be more ethical and proficient when the shot does come. I am pretty comfortable out to 300 yards off shooting sticks or a bipod(300 yards is the longest range available to me locally)

If I can find an distinct ballistic advantage to making my rifle an AI version, I would like to shoot a heavier bullet(I currently shoot a 50gr Vmax) to have any extra knock down power and minimize the chanced of a wounded coyote getting away. I am also thinking of moving to Nosler ballistic tips as I have heard they are less explosvie that the Vmax and more likely to punch thru and cause more terminal damage.

If the advantage is not significant enough, I am simply going to save the money and effort(fire forming and all that) and spend it on powder and bullets and simple shooting practice at my coyote target to just get to know my rifle and load better which may ultimately be the smarter move.

And I do agree with Worker about if I cant hit it with a standart 250, then getting an AI wont help but as I practice and become profficient at ranges beyond 300 yards and I can make consistant hits on my life size metal coyote off shooting sticks or my bipod, then when I do make those hits, I want them to be as hard a hit as possible. I want that coyote dead right there, right now as much as it is possible.

On the other hand, maybe the "NEED FOR SPEED" is all in my head and I should just shut up and get really good with what is already and excellent shooting standard 250.

Anyway, thanks for the advice fellas as I am still undecided as to what to do, so when ever one of you guys stumbles across a round that all ya have to do is just point at em' and they fall over no matter the distance, feel free to pass that along to me.

Thanks again!

Jamie
 
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thoughts....

#1-The 22-250AI is poorly suited for 55gr bullets. It's simply too big. IMO you'll be lucky if you gain 50fps over the standard case while knocking 50% off the life of the barrel.

#2- Be very very careful of a gunsmith who'll "convert" a 22-250 to an Ackley Improved for $75.00. This price leads me to believe he's not setting the barrel back properly. IF HE IS then $75.00 just isn't enough money for a good job.

#3- it has been my experience that spending money on the 22-250 or 22-250AI will cause nothing but grief. IMO the stock case has too much body taper for proper maintenance and the 40degree shoulder of the AI makes maintenance of 22-250AI brass impossible. To do it right you have to spend more money, get a reamer of your own with a 35degree shoulder and a custom made die. I say SAVE YOUR MONEY! (This is from someone who's spent more than he cares to admit on the subject.)

#4- the saving grace of all this is........ the 55gr bullet is a 350-400yd thang tops anyway. FuhGEDDABOUT spending money, it'll easily hit any coyote within it's ballistic range. You need a bigger bullet for longer ranges. Just buy good Winchester brass, load the snot out of it and when it gets sticky or starts to split, chuck it. If you ever DO want a performance oriented 55gr gun save your money and buy a 22BR. or even a 22X47L if you wanna' run with the 220 Swift.


opinionsby



al
 
the standard 22-250 has plenty of accuracy for making good hits past 500yds, but for yote sized critters you are getting into questionable terminal ballistics when you get much past 400. if i wanted to consistantly anchor a coyote out past 500yds, i would get a 6mm rem or 243win.
 
I believe that you fellas have led me to a decision. I am going to leave it alone as a standard 250 and just practice a ton. I do not see any concrete ballistic edge that is significant enough to justify the extra effort and expense. I do have a follow up questions tho.

What would you fellas load bullet-wise for maximum impact on coyotes at a distance? the load I currently run is WIN brass, cci benchrest primers, 36.5 grains of Varget and a 50 grain vmax loaded about .10 off the rifling and it chronos at 3650fps.

would you go lighter and faster on the bullet or slower and heavier for longer range coyote work out to the 22-250 max effective range(clean kill range)?

Option 1. light bullet+more speed=more thump and more dead coyotes???????

Option 2. heavier bullet with more mass and a little less speed= more thump and more dead coyotes???????

I also am concernded about bullet splash so I am looking for a bullet that is more inclinded to punch thru both sides of a broadside coyote. I have heard that Nosler BTs have a thicker jacket than the Vmax and and are less inclinded to blow up on the outside(bullet splash) and poke holes all the way thru leaving less of a chance for a run off.

Here are some bullet choices that I have available to me.

40, 50, 53 and 55gr Vmax
40, 50 and 55gr NBT
52 gr Sierra matchkings
52 gr berger varmint match
50 and 55gr Blitzkings

I am also thinking of looking into the regular old Sierra 55 gr PSP hunting type bullet. My first priority is accuracy but for the sake of learning something, lets just say they all shoot with the same degree of accuracy. Do any of you guys know of and specific reason to use one of the above mentioned bullets over all the others for my intended purpose?
 
OK, you've got a few wires crossed..... but you're getting it. Go with option 2. :)

Speed from light bullets will NEVER beat heavy bullets at long range. From the same case (22-250 in your case) The "slower" heavier bullets will PASS UP the fast light bullets at midrange. Think balloon VS javelin. No matter HOW fast you throw that balloon the javelin beats it.

In short, light bullets/high speed=LESS thump @500yds.

Same for bullet splash. The heavier pills tend to over-penetrate and kick clods on the far side.

You will find it's harder to make the heavy bullets shoot. If you do get them to shoot from a factory rifle ya' got lucky. Sometimes mfg custom cases with thick necks will help.

al
 
Going to AI will increase velocity, accuracy won't change. Since about '90 I've had a bunch of 22-250AI's and will give you my results.

The 22-250 case has a lot of body taper and it's one of the best as an "improved" cartridige. Going AI will give a nice velocity increase, don't let anyone tell you different. Any difference in barrel life will be negligible. And "fireforming" is NOT an ordeal, you find an accurate load as with any other cartridge then go shoot with it. It'll be faster than a std. 22-250 and there'll be no loss of accuracy. Fireforming load in a 25" barrel was 50BT @ 4100.....I never got around to chrono'ing that barrel with formed brass. Another 28" barrel, the load is a 50 @ 4247. A rechambered 24" factory sporter barrel, the load was a 50 @ 4100. A friend shoots 55's @ 4000 with his gun, I don't remember the barrel length. These are all 14" twist. Compare these to a std. 22-250. Run the numbers through a ballistic program and compare trajectory with a std. 22-250. Then decide whether it's worth having. The slower/heavier vs. lighter/faster thing? There's a can of worms for you that'll generate a neverending argument. It takes a lot of ballistic coefficient to make up for velocity and BC's vary from bullet to bullet.

First get your rifle tweeked. Shooting 50's at 3650 is only a little more than .223 performance, the 22-250 will do a lot better than that. Try W760 or even better, RL15 powder. Once it's shooting to potential, then decide about whether to AI the rifle.
 
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22/250 AI for coyote hunting

I used the regular 22/250's and AI version for hunting coyotes in Mexico, Az, and Ca for years along with 14" and 12" twists.

When coyote hunting, the shots demand shooting coyotes on the run or trot for perhaps 50% of the shots. Speed cuts way down on the leade. In the standard 22/250, I ran the 55's at 3550-3650 fps with pretty good succes as long as the distance did not get much over 250 yards and they were not hit too far back behind the diaphram. The AI version was pushing the 55's at 3950 to 4050 depending on the barrel and it simply pole ax'd coyotes as far as I could hit them(450 yds max).

I shot several bullets with great success, the Sierra 55g BTHP, 55g Sierra Sp,55g Sierra BT SP, 55g Nosler Ballistic tip, and 50g Sierra SP.

If you have a 14 twist, the only bullet that you MIGHT have problems with would be a 55g Sierra Blitz king which is the longest of the bunch. I have never had problems stabalizing a 55g Nosler BT in a 14 twist.

I was in several coyote hunting clubs in S. Ca. at that time and one of the guys was a tool and die maker and started chambering barrels. I know that he chambered 20+ rifles for club members in the 22/250 AI and all used Hart barrels with 12 or 14 twists, and of all those rifles they all used Win 760, one used H380 and the other used H414. We met at the rifle range and helped guys work up loads on the spot, about 4 of could reload out of the back of the truck, so in one range session, we would have the guy's rifle down to shooting very small groups.

Having killed a lot of coyotes, the 22/250 AI is one of my favorite cartridges, fast, super accurate, no case trimming.

For the kind of speed that you get out of this cartridge, I would get a tougher bullet than a V Max. The bullets that I mentioned will anchor coyotes from hard quartering angles where the bullet has to penetrate 12" of bone and flesh. The 50g Sierra Sp is a fantastic bullet, both accurate and tough...do not over look this bullet.

As to re-chambering your savage, you should ask the gunsmith to do a little investigation as to the condition of the throat, and make sure your gunsmith understands what a "crush" fit is on setting up the headspace.

80% of all shots on coyotes in my life have been under 200 yards, so the call is for a rifle that has the punch to kill instantly even when the shot is in the stomach(did not leade the animal enough while it was moving).

The one thing about a coyote rifle is that is also a varmint rifle also, rabbits, crows, etc. The speed and accuracy of the AI is top notch when sniping crows where you only get one shot to get it right.

If you elect to get a 12 twist on your next barrel, then consider the 60g Berger HP along with Win 760 one of the best coyote loads on the planet, switch out to a 60g Nosler partition and you are good for any deer or antelope on the planet.

If you were wanting to upgrade from a 22/250 AI, go to a 243 AI. I have had two 6/250's and two 6/250 AI's, and prefer the 243 AI where you could get super accuracy with extremes in speed.

Remember that some of the tougher/heavier match bullets do not expand at all on coyotes at all. I had trouble out of a 60g Nosler Hp and 60g Sierra Hp shooting holes straight though coyotes on boadside shots with them just standing there after taking multple hits where the bullet zipped inbetween the ribs.

Good luck on your hunting this year!
 
In my standard 22-250 which is a 22inch bbl in a 1:12 twist, I tested 55gr vmaxes with 34gr of varget, CCI br primers, win cases and .10 off the rifling and it chronoed at 5 shots at 3470, 3482, 3438, 3453,and 3461 which averages out to be 3460. Does this seem slow considering the above load data? I guess I feel like it is because of some of the numbers posted above by some of you guys. Am I missing something or doing something wrong? Ideas?????
 
Even with a 22" barrel those are little more than .223 velocities.....actually with the right powder a .223 is easily faster than that. Varget has never been more than so-so for me but lots 22-250 shooters think it's the best. Your load is very light. Years ago I dismantled several hundred rds of factory 22-250 ammunition to get the brass. I don't use Varget and have no idea if or how much it varies from lot to lot, but the factory load was 36.5gr Varget with a 55gr bullet. Sounds like you didn't go far enough with the loading sequence. But if you did and accuracy wasn't there, then that's just the powder/bullet combination that works best in your gun and velocity is what it is. One thing about AI cartridges.....where with a std. cartridge the most accurate load is often with pressure/velocity backed off, the AI cartridges shoot really well with top end or near top end loads.
 
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Now another question. My current load for my standard is 36.5gr of varget in win cases, CCI br primers and a 50gr vmax at 3650-3675fps. Is this considered slow even though it is .10 over the Hornady reloading manual max? are those "book" speeds and powder maximums conservative for legal reasons and is it safely possible to get a 50gr vmax or NBT going faster than that out of a 22inch 1:12 tube?
 
Jamie, All rifles are individual. Your specific rifle will tell you what is a max load. Primer cratering (although it can be a FP/pin hole dia issue) is 1 thing to look at, Base expansion is another (I like no more than .002) Extracton (bolt lift another)and this does depend on chamber base dimentions (factory chambers are anyones guess). The Hornady book has been (in my estimation) a bit low load wise (They do use some FACTORY rifles in their development).
 
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Ive got a couple AIs and I like them. Don't believe that a 22-250 wont shoot a 55 gr bullet. And the cases with a lot of body taper are the ones that benefit from the blown out body and 40 degree shoulder. You wont haft to trim cases as often.
 
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