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garrettkq
Guest
Who's holding it? Where's it going to be? When?
M
ModelA
Guest
Garrett been asking the same questions for a while, the only answer I got from Steve who does the scores for the Scoreline. Nothing from the BOD.???
Steve said two clubs was willing to run the Nationals but he didn't say which clubs?
Would be nice to know so people can plan their travel.
Paul Bendix
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garrettkq
Guest
Paul,
We here in Phoenix have offered to to host the Nationals again. Our offer has been on the table, however the current board has not responded. We have expressed interest and the willingness to host. Well, here we are IN 2018 and still no word for the leadership of the sport. This makes me very uncomfortable to say this on a public forum, but this really questions the leadership of the USARB. Organizing a NATIONAL level championship event takes time, effort, funding, and sponsorship. Most importantly, time. Time for the competitors to plan, and time for the organizers to perform all the essential tasks to pull off a successful event. Any strong organization has this solidified well before a year out. Not a few months, and certainly not in haste.
To me, this indicates because we have not heard anything yet, I am afraid the fragmentation of leadership in airgun Benchrest here in the United States is becoming apparent and genuinely questions the future of our sport. It pains me to say this publicly. There ARE stewards of this sport that have worked very hard to see this thrive and continue. However, with the stagnation in leadership, those that are willing and interested to follow a sport, have no direction. Even worse, no designated place to gather, celebrate, and share their passion for sportsmanship on a yearly basis.
Paul, I don't want to see Airgun Benchrest fade away. And, I am certain, there are many out there that agree.
Garrett
We here in Phoenix have offered to to host the Nationals again. Our offer has been on the table, however the current board has not responded. We have expressed interest and the willingness to host. Well, here we are IN 2018 and still no word for the leadership of the sport. This makes me very uncomfortable to say this on a public forum, but this really questions the leadership of the USARB. Organizing a NATIONAL level championship event takes time, effort, funding, and sponsorship. Most importantly, time. Time for the competitors to plan, and time for the organizers to perform all the essential tasks to pull off a successful event. Any strong organization has this solidified well before a year out. Not a few months, and certainly not in haste.
To me, this indicates because we have not heard anything yet, I am afraid the fragmentation of leadership in airgun Benchrest here in the United States is becoming apparent and genuinely questions the future of our sport. It pains me to say this publicly. There ARE stewards of this sport that have worked very hard to see this thrive and continue. However, with the stagnation in leadership, those that are willing and interested to follow a sport, have no direction. Even worse, no designated place to gather, celebrate, and share their passion for sportsmanship on a yearly basis.
Paul, I don't want to see Airgun Benchrest fade away. And, I am certain, there are many out there that agree.
Garrett
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Joe Friedrich
Member
Garrett, sorry you feel that way. You contacted me a month ago about hosting this years Nationals, and apologize for not getting back to you sooner but dealing with pneumonia for the last month you were not a priority my health was. You stated having the Nationals in October which is 9 months away and feel one still has enough time to plan it if there is a agreement with BOD. Either way it will be held.
The only drawback I see after speaking with you is the protest period, you still want to magnify the bull, see where the center is and if it needs to be moved. All the big matches that have taken place use a plug for protesting targets.If your crew doesn't understand how to use a plug I would be more than happy to help in this area using my gear. Give me a call when you have the time to discuss, now that I'm feeling much better.
Kind Regards,
Joe
The only drawback I see after speaking with you is the protest period, you still want to magnify the bull, see where the center is and if it needs to be moved. All the big matches that have taken place use a plug for protesting targets.If your crew doesn't understand how to use a plug I would be more than happy to help in this area using my gear. Give me a call when you have the time to discuss, now that I'm feeling much better.
Kind Regards,
Joe
Chas DiCapua
New member
Nationals in Phoenix
Garrett, I hope the details can be worked out so that the nationals can be held at your club in Phoenix. I would look forward to coming out and shooting with you all.
Thanks in advance for all the work that goes into hosting such an event.
Chas
Garrett, I hope the details can be worked out so that the nationals can be held at your club in Phoenix. I would look forward to coming out and shooting with you all.
Thanks in advance for all the work that goes into hosting such an event.
Chas
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garrettkq
Guest
A few points:
Joe, the sport appreciates your hard work and effort over the years. You are one of the gentlemen and stewards of our sport. Your sincere efforts over the years to keep this together is felt nation-wide.
Thank you for your offer on how to use a plug. We are well versed and highly skilled in this archaic ability. However, with advances in technology over the years, we have moved well beyond the limitations of this system. Computer and scanning technology has replaced the metal vs hanging chad method. Now, I understand that this is a paradigm shift for many that are set in their ways. But, we are FULLY confident in the system we are using to score and provide world-class results. Keep in mind, no system is perfect, but the key is to identify it's faults and address them head-on, and not hide behind outdated methodology. I will be more than happy to reciprocate, and show you how to use this scoring system. That includes blowing up the pellet hole to about a foot wide on the TV monitor and counting the lead-stained fibers. We chatted about what the World rules require: ...that the protest must be re-scored manually. That is exactly what the program allows, and what we'll do, but with superb ability.
Dick,
Thank you for your kind words.
Orion has unfortunately stopped allocating resources to airgun benchrest for one simple reason. The clubs and individual shooters in this sport did not invest in the system. Frankly, most benchrest clubs are only a handful of shooters in size and don't need to invest in a scoring system of this caliber. It takes a tremendous amount of resources, time, and money to create AND maintain updates. Considering that we host events on a monthly basis that rival even regionals or nationals in size- combined, we need a system that can meet these demands. The system works great, the problem was keeping it updated with new operating systems. There is still no benchrest scoring system that exceeds the capabilities of this program. We will continue to use it. We are looking for other systems that can meet or surpass this devices' capability. We are already exploring the next generation... paperless systems. (boy now that will rock some of the pluggers' world, lol. Yes, did you feel the earth stand still for a moment?)
Kim,
You are more than welcome to come on out and check out our range. There are no issues "reaching" 25 Meters. The only issue is one's ability to manage the wind that pushes your pellet out that far! Open Grove is a great range, the hosts have their hearts in the right places. It is however limited on benches, and other minor issues and consistencies.
We are ready, willing, and able to host the next championship. Waiting too long, at this busy, popular range, we will loose that window for reserving the real estate. It is now almost February, and still no answer. WE don't want to see benchrest fade away. Again, I am certain that there folks out there that agree, as your many private emails of support attest. The luxury of procrastination does not exist if you want to put on a grand event.
It. Is. Time. We are prepared and will be moving forward to make this happen.
We will host The 2018 National Championship in October.
Garrett
Joe, the sport appreciates your hard work and effort over the years. You are one of the gentlemen and stewards of our sport. Your sincere efforts over the years to keep this together is felt nation-wide.
Thank you for your offer on how to use a plug. We are well versed and highly skilled in this archaic ability. However, with advances in technology over the years, we have moved well beyond the limitations of this system. Computer and scanning technology has replaced the metal vs hanging chad method. Now, I understand that this is a paradigm shift for many that are set in their ways. But, we are FULLY confident in the system we are using to score and provide world-class results. Keep in mind, no system is perfect, but the key is to identify it's faults and address them head-on, and not hide behind outdated methodology. I will be more than happy to reciprocate, and show you how to use this scoring system. That includes blowing up the pellet hole to about a foot wide on the TV monitor and counting the lead-stained fibers. We chatted about what the World rules require: ...that the protest must be re-scored manually. That is exactly what the program allows, and what we'll do, but with superb ability.
Dick,
Thank you for your kind words.
Orion has unfortunately stopped allocating resources to airgun benchrest for one simple reason. The clubs and individual shooters in this sport did not invest in the system. Frankly, most benchrest clubs are only a handful of shooters in size and don't need to invest in a scoring system of this caliber. It takes a tremendous amount of resources, time, and money to create AND maintain updates. Considering that we host events on a monthly basis that rival even regionals or nationals in size- combined, we need a system that can meet these demands. The system works great, the problem was keeping it updated with new operating systems. There is still no benchrest scoring system that exceeds the capabilities of this program. We will continue to use it. We are looking for other systems that can meet or surpass this devices' capability. We are already exploring the next generation... paperless systems. (boy now that will rock some of the pluggers' world, lol. Yes, did you feel the earth stand still for a moment?)
Kim,
You are more than welcome to come on out and check out our range. There are no issues "reaching" 25 Meters. The only issue is one's ability to manage the wind that pushes your pellet out that far! Open Grove is a great range, the hosts have their hearts in the right places. It is however limited on benches, and other minor issues and consistencies.
We are ready, willing, and able to host the next championship. Waiting too long, at this busy, popular range, we will loose that window for reserving the real estate. It is now almost February, and still no answer. WE don't want to see benchrest fade away. Again, I am certain that there folks out there that agree, as your many private emails of support attest. The luxury of procrastination does not exist if you want to put on a grand event.
It. Is. Time. We are prepared and will be moving forward to make this happen.
We will host The 2018 National Championship in October.
Garrett
S
Salticon
Guest
My take.
Personally i would love to see Nats in Phoenix, Garrett runs a top notch range and his events run smoothly. I have all the trust in the world in his scoring system, i double checked my EBR cards when i got back home, and they where on the money 100%. I only ask that the benches be lottery drawn in front of the shooter, and bench rotation after every card shot. Thats the proper way by World rules. We definitely need a time frame for Nats last month already. KimZ im not sure what you are referring to, but the Phoenix range supported i believe was 40+ benches from 25m-100 yards. Todd Banks held 2017 Nationals and did a outstanding job, he ran NATs and NERegionals like it was a world class event. Their was a few whining prima donnas and complainers in the crowd, but they shutup and shot their targets. Theres always a few in the crowd that think the sea should part as they are approaching the bench..
My Vote is for Phoenix, oh thats right.. doesnt matter what the shooters want.... thats what it seems like.... seems like the sport has a noose on it from high up, Lets get it together make some dates! Let do something other than make/sell targets and maintain a numbers website. We have shooter willing to travel around the world to represent the US with not help or support from our governing body. If it seens rude and hurts feelings im sorry, if im mis informed, learn me..
Ken Hicks
Southeast Sharpshooters
Personally i would love to see Nats in Phoenix, Garrett runs a top notch range and his events run smoothly. I have all the trust in the world in his scoring system, i double checked my EBR cards when i got back home, and they where on the money 100%. I only ask that the benches be lottery drawn in front of the shooter, and bench rotation after every card shot. Thats the proper way by World rules. We definitely need a time frame for Nats last month already. KimZ im not sure what you are referring to, but the Phoenix range supported i believe was 40+ benches from 25m-100 yards. Todd Banks held 2017 Nationals and did a outstanding job, he ran NATs and NERegionals like it was a world class event. Their was a few whining prima donnas and complainers in the crowd, but they shutup and shot their targets. Theres always a few in the crowd that think the sea should part as they are approaching the bench..
My Vote is for Phoenix, oh thats right.. doesnt matter what the shooters want.... thats what it seems like.... seems like the sport has a noose on it from high up, Lets get it together make some dates! Let do something other than make/sell targets and maintain a numbers website. We have shooter willing to travel around the world to represent the US with not help or support from our governing body. If it seens rude and hurts feelings im sorry, if im mis informed, learn me..
Ken Hicks
Southeast Sharpshooters
M
ModelA
Guest
Kim I have been to the first National's that Garrett and crew ran and your right the targets were only 25 yards. They were going to move the benches back 8 plus feet to make it 25 meters. If I remember correctly the Club would not allow it for safety reasons.
Also the only way you could work on your gun as if to change barrels you had to walk to a practice range and wait for an open bench. You couldn't work on it in your car. Once you had the changes done there was nobody to check your gun for that class.
You were to pick up your targets at the banquet. My package only had three of my LV targets in it. Three other people had the rest of my targets. And the protest was long over before I got my targets. The original scoring system Sucked!
Overall I had a great time but don't think I will ever shoot in AZ again.
I think we are missing something. Every country holds qualify matches to enable you to go represent their country at the Worlds or World Cup. The USA is who ever wants to go and has the money. At the Worlds in
2011 in SC. You had to qualify, we on the east coast had to shoot in snow storms and -30 degrees weather
And still kicked butt.
Paul Bendix
Also the only way you could work on your gun as if to change barrels you had to walk to a practice range and wait for an open bench. You couldn't work on it in your car. Once you had the changes done there was nobody to check your gun for that class.
You were to pick up your targets at the banquet. My package only had three of my LV targets in it. Three other people had the rest of my targets. And the protest was long over before I got my targets. The original scoring system Sucked!
Overall I had a great time but don't think I will ever shoot in AZ again.
I think we are missing something. Every country holds qualify matches to enable you to go represent their country at the Worlds or World Cup. The USA is who ever wants to go and has the money. At the Worlds in
2011 in SC. You had to qualify, we on the east coast had to shoot in snow storms and -30 degrees weather
And still kicked butt.
Paul Bendix
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Joe Friedrich
Member
Phoenix will be hosting this years USARB Nationals.
Joe Friedrich
acting for USARB Board of Directors
Joe Friedrich
acting for USARB Board of Directors
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garrettkq
Guest
Paul,
One of the important things to remember at a active range is that safety is a primary concern. When people are tinkering with their guns in all different places, there is no control for safety. This range strictly prohibits playing with guns in your car. Sorry, but we all know that bad things happen. If you needed to work on your rifle, you needed to do in in a safe way with the barrel pointed in a safe direction, and that's downrange. Unfortunately, this couldn't be done on a range where people were down rage during a cold line, or during a match. So we provided an entirely separate area to tinker. Folks have a tendency to come from ranges with all different safety standards. We adhere to the highest levels possible, so we understand this may be challenging for some. When holding matches with 100+ folks running around, you have to be strict, but yet kind. You wouldn't believe how many times you see people at different ranges tinkering with their guns and firing them in the direction of other shooters!
The scoring system was in it's infancy when you first experienced it. Looking back, I laugh now, after hearing the crew you went home with in your car was reading the wrong column of the printed reports and thought the numbers were completely off by several digits. Hahaha, it's ok i wouldn't admit to that either, lol. I do believe you still did go home with "just a few" well deserved gold medals that trip.
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garrettkq
Guest
Joe,
We are glad to have your support. We look forward to a great event. Thank you for all your efforts.
Garrett
Pete Roberson
New member
Just Wondering
Joe,
It was my understanding that St. Louis offered long before Phoenix, is there a reason why they
weren't considered??
Seems as though it would have been much better to consider a club that didn't have so many excuses
for why they couldn't fix what was wrong the last time??
Joe,
It was my understanding that St. Louis offered long before Phoenix, is there a reason why they
weren't considered??
Seems as though it would have been much better to consider a club that didn't have so many excuses
for why they couldn't fix what was wrong the last time??
Joe Friedrich
Member
Pete,
One club was interested but never got back to us. I do not believe it was St. Louis. Out of the last 4 years only 3 clubs came forward to host the Nationals, 2 of them were here. All that needs to be done is for a sanctioned club to contact the Board so we can discuss the venue. If St. Louis is serious they need to contact us for next year.
Kind Regards,
Joe
One club was interested but never got back to us. I do not believe it was St. Louis. Out of the last 4 years only 3 clubs came forward to host the Nationals, 2 of them were here. All that needs to be done is for a sanctioned club to contact the Board so we can discuss the venue. If St. Louis is serious they need to contact us for next year.
Kind Regards,
Joe
Pete Roberson
New member
Thanks!!
Joe,
Thank You for the clarification !!
Pete
Joe,
Thank You for the clarification !!
Pete
Nationals in AZ
Garrett if you please, some clarifications may help shooters thinking of attending:
1. Dates of the event, which classes / which days, how long each day?. Practice days?
2. Will shooters be obligated to compete in all classes or certain classes?
3. Benches to be shared with other shooters? Bench rotation between cards? If so, how will benches be assigned and how much time to set up at your new bench?
4. How will cards be scored? What will the protest timing / procedure be and how will protested cards be re-scored?
5. Distance from front of bench to targets?
Maybe others will have additional questions.
Thank you
Kim
Garrett if you please, some clarifications may help shooters thinking of attending:
1. Dates of the event, which classes / which days, how long each day?. Practice days?
2. Will shooters be obligated to compete in all classes or certain classes?
3. Benches to be shared with other shooters? Bench rotation between cards? If so, how will benches be assigned and how much time to set up at your new bench?
4. How will cards be scored? What will the protest timing / procedure be and how will protested cards be re-scored?
5. Distance from front of bench to targets?
Maybe others will have additional questions.
Thank you
Kim
C
Capt. Picard
Guest
Phoenix Issues-----There are none.......
Seems a lot of you are ill informed. Phoenix has a 25 METER range. No if, and's, or but's. There are no safety issues because everybody follows the rules. If you do not follow the rules and you have been previously warned you will be asked to leave. I value my safety and all of you should as well. As for scoring!!!!! I have used both, plugging and electronic. Plugging is ok but it has it's own pitfalls. Electronic, though not perfect has proven time after time more accurate and consistent than plugging. I feel fortunate that we have an environment which allows us to use electronic scoring. I will agree that for smaller clubs it may not be a feasable option so by all means continue plugging. But don't you DARE criticize electronic scoring unless you have EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about this system. So stop the bull and get with the program. We are here to have fun, at least I am. Instead of picking things apart and being part of the problem, as many of you seem inclined to be, I'd rather be part of the solution and be shooting. I don't care what scoring system you use!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will say this "once you go electronic you won't go back".....
Andrew C Picard
Seems a lot of you are ill informed. Phoenix has a 25 METER range. No if, and's, or but's. There are no safety issues because everybody follows the rules. If you do not follow the rules and you have been previously warned you will be asked to leave. I value my safety and all of you should as well. As for scoring!!!!! I have used both, plugging and electronic. Plugging is ok but it has it's own pitfalls. Electronic, though not perfect has proven time after time more accurate and consistent than plugging. I feel fortunate that we have an environment which allows us to use electronic scoring. I will agree that for smaller clubs it may not be a feasable option so by all means continue plugging. But don't you DARE criticize electronic scoring unless you have EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE about this system. So stop the bull and get with the program. We are here to have fun, at least I am. Instead of picking things apart and being part of the problem, as many of you seem inclined to be, I'd rather be part of the solution and be shooting. I don't care what scoring system you use!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will say this "once you go electronic you won't go back".....
Andrew C Picard
Spock here captain
Logically the correct way to decide this is with science, not bellicosity! I have not seen proof nor evidence that electronic scoring is more, less, or the same accuracy as manual plugging.
It would not be difficult to test this: Take a number of cards (50+) scored electronically*, and number each card. Phoenix keeps a list of the electronic scores, with each card number corresponding to a score. The cards should not have electronic scores on them as it could create bias. Send the cards to us at Open Grove (because we have Open Minds ), and we will score them manually/conventionally. After the cards have been scored both ways, the score sets can be compared (possibly statistically) for differences.
Maybe then we will live long and prosper!
*More is better, maybe 100 shot in actual conditions. It would be important not to "cherry pick" cards to avoid those that had to be re-scored, protested, etc.
Logically the correct way to decide this is with science, not bellicosity! I have not seen proof nor evidence that electronic scoring is more, less, or the same accuracy as manual plugging.
It would not be difficult to test this: Take a number of cards (50+) scored electronically*, and number each card. Phoenix keeps a list of the electronic scores, with each card number corresponding to a score. The cards should not have electronic scores on them as it could create bias. Send the cards to us at Open Grove (because we have Open Minds ), and we will score them manually/conventionally. After the cards have been scored both ways, the score sets can be compared (possibly statistically) for differences.
Maybe then we will live long and prosper!
*More is better, maybe 100 shot in actual conditions. It would be important not to "cherry pick" cards to avoid those that had to be re-scored, protested, etc.
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