1000 yd Muzzle Brake Rule Change

J

jbennington

Guest
Many people shoot their light gun in the heavy gun class in IBS. If they have a muzzle brake they must remove it to be legal in HG. This makes no sense. Attached is a petition to change the rule to allow LGs to shoot with muzzle brakes in HG.

A copy of the petition is attached (PDF and Word) and must be supported by 25 IBS members and submitted by July 1. If you support this rule change, print out the petition and send it to:

Jerry Bennington
4909 Eldorado Springs Drive
Boulder, CO 80303

I will collect the petitions and submit them to IBS. Do it now, time is short.
 

Attachments

  • Petition to Change IBS Official Rules of Competition.doc
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  • Petition to Change IBS Official Rules of Competition.pdf
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Do you want us to mail it to you at the above address?

I think this rule change is a good one!!!

Tod.

Never mind....I had a brain fart and forgot what "Send it to" ment!!!

It's in the mail.
 
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So there by, we will only have to bring one gun to the match. Why not just have one class? The match will go quicker.

And this just adds fuel to the side that want to make LG 10 shots.

Danny
 
Danny
Lots of folks like to build specialized heavy guns and that is great. However, many people just shoot their LG in the Heavy Gun class. This change would make it a little more "shooter friendly" for those people.
 
Suggestion: make your LG "shooter friendly" with a smaller caliber if recoil w/o a brake is an issue. Alternately, be creative and figure out a slick way to add rest plates to your LG so you can add weight when you shoot it in HG (the EXISTING rules allow for this). There's many ways to accomplish the goal, invent something that works and sell it to all those who only want to build 1 gun. We don't need more rule modifications. Just my opinion FWIW.
 
couple points:

1. Nothing would stop anyone from bringing a 70 lb second gun for HG! Nothing to be afraid of here with the change.

2. Nothing would stop you from building a small caliber no brake gun. Go for it.

Before it is said AGAIN, " Why harp about shooting next to a LG with brake in HG class when you do exactly that in LG with no problem"? Suddenly a LG w/brake is a problem to shoot next to? Totally disengenous arguement that has been used repeatedly to kill this..

Why are people scared of a LG with a brake in HG?

Why do people want to discourage the new or cannot afford a second gun shooter with one gun instead of encouraging them?

Does not pass the "common sense" test IF personnal agendas are thrown out. Key unspoken reason to stop this.

Mine is in the mail, but 25 signatures is not the key, only first step.

You must gather the members to show up in PA in Jan or it will get voted down by a very small minority of the total shooters, but ones who will show up to kill agendas like this.

This process is antiquated (era of 3-4 East coast clubs only) and systemically flawed and allows a very small minority to control any proposed changes. IBS clearly sees no need to change the process to allow the membership as a whole to vote on proposed items instead of less than 2% of the membership. The IBS LR membership is ONLY allowed to vote IF the proposed item can get past the controlling 2% minority that can travel to PA in Jan.

Not right, not fair but that is the way it is for now!

BH
 
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NBRSA Long Range rules are looking better and better. As is the NBRSA representative form of organization.

JMHO. Don't get mad. I'll butt out from now on.;):rolleyes::cool:
 
Bountyhunter, You have some very good points there. I agree totally. I have no problems shooting next a braked rifle and wonder why so many guys argue about the noise and blast. If you don't like the noise, take up chess or golf for quiet afternoons.... I also don't buy the idea that it will affect rifle position on the bench or poi downrange. If it does it seems to me that you may have a weak setup to be moved that easily. I feel like some clubs in the east are highly resistant to change that even if there is a benefit they will oppose it in favor of the status quo. I don't know why voting is only done on rule agenda items at the annual meeting. There just isn't enough to get most of out further west to attend the meeting to vote during the middle of the winter so closer folks get to vote and so goes the cycle. If I am incorrect in what I have written I am ok with being corrected but I agree that this seems flawed. These are my opinions and I'm sure some will disagree.
Nate
 
Heavy Gun and Light Gun are two different classes and were never meant to have complete parity.

I think we can all agree that a light gun is easier to handle with a muzzle brake.

Please read the next part carefully. Please.

That being said: A petition to change the heavy gun rules, to allow a rifle weighing no more than 17 lbs., with a muzzle brake and compete against the heavy guns, is an attempt to seek an advantage. This should not be allowed.

A petition for changing the light gun rule is a waste of time. Now, a petition for changing the heavy gun rule to allow muzzle brakes makes much more sense.

Heavy guns are the show pieces of extreme accuracy. Mechanical rests, rails and the ability to return to battery. The last step would be to allow muzzle brakes. Why this hasn't happened is still a mystery to me.

The Pa. club already allows muzzle brakes on heavy guns.
 
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Bob Pastor said:
Heavy Gun and Light Gun are two different classes and were never meant to have complete parity.

I think we can all agree that a light gun is easier to handle with a muzzle brake.

Please read the next part carefully. Please.

That being said: A petition to change the heavy gun rules, to allow a rifle weighing no more than 17 lbs., with a muzzle brake and compete against the heavy guns, is an attempt to seek an advantage. This should not be allowed.

A petition for changing the light gun rule is a waste of time. Now, a petition for changing the heavy gun rule to allow muzzle brakes makes much more sense.

Heavy guns are the show pieces of extreme accuracy. Mechanical rests, rails and the ability to return to battery. The last step would be to allow muzzle brakes. Why this hasn't happened is still a mystery to me.

The Pa. club already allows muzzle brakes on heavy guns.
Click to expand...

I am with Bob on this topic
 
I guess maybe my reasons differ from most of you. Now, I have nothing to gain because I now have a dedicted HG, so changing the rule will not help me one bit. That being said, we need MORE shooters in this sport. I have been trying to get new shooters into the sport since I started in 08. I show them pictures taken at matches and the first thing out of their mouths is "I can't compete against those monsters". They have a good idea what it costs to be compeditive in 600-1K. My thoughts is that it would be a whole lot cheaper to build one gun....at least to start with. I feel that the new shooter, with one breaked LG could/would be a whole lot more compeditive in the HG class. He/she would be way more apt to give the sport a try if they feel like they can compete with the "big guys" and not spend thier lives savings.

Now, I am in no way saying that any of you don't want to expand the sport......but.....The closest match for me is a Friday-Sunday/1000 mile weekend. More people (hopefully) means more ranges......Maybe even CLOSER to home!!!
 
Then do both and the muzzle brake on a LG is a moot point. Isn't it.

Bob,

This is not about parity and you know it. It is about encouraging more shooters to join and stay in LR BR and more in both classes. Clubs are struggling to survive and HG always has the lowest shooters.

I fought this issue for 3-4 yrs before throwing up my hands. It never was about an advantage, plus I want to see the 17 lb LG operated for 10 shots that has an advantage over a 70 lb HG. Never seen it or even heard of it. They are consistently slower and normally require handling in the bags. I do not buy that arguement for one bit.

So exactly what is the inherent advantage a LG has? Where has it been proven? Has the LG dominated PA since muzzle brakes are allowed. There is not one.

IMO another old school "sound bite" that does not come close to reality when looked at factually.

We have numerous videos showing HGs running 10 shots with maybe 1-2 minor adjustments and winning in as little as the low 20 seconds.

I have watched Danny B and John Buhay run 10 shots in a HG under 30 seconds and win. Never seen or heard of a LG doing that. Has anyone else?

Does anyone here honestly want to post that they think a LG can do that much less consistently win?

However, the problem will still be the same with that agenda item too.

Only 20-25 LR shooters (primarily East coast) will show up in Jan and each can have one proxy vote. They will absolutely and totally control what the other 1000 plus LR shooters get to do and more importantly even get to vote on. The 2% rule in IBS.

Here is a harsh reality on how the system really operates: We have the current scoring system which is a nightmare for scorekeepers because of one club, a 15 pax van and proxy votes. FACT

Until the shooters demand the E Board change the voting process from the 1960s 3 east coast club rules that are now;, nothing like these two agendas stands a chance in Jan.

BH
 
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Ted, I think you are absolutely right about finding ways to get more folks to participate in LR BR. When I talk to people and try to get them involved the idea of build one new gun is daunting. I shoot at the Colorado Rifle Club and it is hard to imagine a nicer facility for 1000 yd benchrest. We get schooters from Kansas, Nebraska and Wyoming which is great, but we still typically have less than 20 shooters for our monthly matches. This is a simple change that is unlikely to have any competitive impact.

Most of us just like to shoot. I think many shoot their LG in HG just so they can shoot more and have more fun. We should make it as easy for them as we can.

Bounty Hunter,
I understand you comments about getting this kind of change passed at the annual meeting. One step at a time, let's get it on the agenda.
 
BountyHunter said:
Then do both and the muzzle brake on a LG is a moot point. Isn't it.

Bob,

This is not about parity and you know it. It is about encouraging more shooters to join and stay in LR BR and more in both classes. Clubs are struggling to survive and HG always has the lowest shooters.

I fought this issue for 3-4 yrs before throwing up my hands. It never was about an advantage, plus I want to see the 17 lb LG operated for 10 shots that has an advantage over a 70 lb HG. Never seen it or even heard of it. They are consistently slower and normally require handling in the bags. I do not buy that arguement for one bit.

So exactly what is the inherent advantage a LG has? Where has it been proven? Has the LG dominated PA since muzzle brakes are allowed. There is not one.

IMO another old school "sound bite" that does not come close to reality when looked at factually.

We have numerous videos showing HGs running 10 shots with maybe 1-2 minor adjustments and winning in as little as the low 20 seconds.

I have watched Danny B and John Buhay run 10 shots in a HG under 30 seconds and win. Never seen or heard of a LG doing that. Has anyone else?

Does anyone here honestly want to post that they think a LG can do that much less consistently win?

However, the problem will still be the same with that agenda item too.

Only 20-25 LR shooters (primarily East coast) will show up in Jan and each can have one proxy vote. They will absolutely and totally control what the other 1000 plus LR shooters get to do and more importantly even get to vote on. The 2% rule in IBS.

Here is a harsh reality on how the system really operates: We have the current scoring system which is a nightmare for scorekeepers because of one club, a 15 pax van and proxy votes. FACT

Until the shooters demand the E Board change the voting process from the 1960s 3 east coast club rules that are now;, nothing like these two agendas stands a chance in Jan.

BH
Click to expand...

Please forgive me but I don't recongnize the name Bounty Hunter with any particular shooter.

However, any shooter with a light gun can compete in heavy gun and if the muzzle brake doesn't make it easier to shoot, then it's a mute point from the beginning. They don't need it. No, a light gun won't win all the time against a heavy gun. If you have shot for any length of time, in the IBS, then you already know that a light gun ,in the hands of good shooter, can and does win in heavy gun class regularly. Coming from Virginia, you might know a few of those shooters. It's the shooter, not just the rifle.

Attendance at the matches is down between 40-50% this year. It's the economy not the muzzle brake. The use of a muzzle brake in heavy gun will not increase attendance. Shooters shoot because they love to shoot.

Domination? Try some of these shooters. All four of the Hoovers(Never shot a heavy gun) and won on a regular basis against them. Miss Ammerman, from Pa. Hands down one of the fastest and most accurate shooters today.

There are at least 5 shooters from every club that can go head to head with the heavy guns and win. "without a muzzle brake" and they do it all the time. 10 shots with a light gun and winning has and is done on a regular basis in under 30 seconds.

The voting system is not part of the topic here. The topic is muzzle brakes on light guns competing in the heavy gun class.

The system isn't broke. If muzzle brakes are allowed in heavy gun then the light guns are automatically included with theirs.
 
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Bob

Last time I talked with John Hoover, I am pretty sure that they had transitioned at least in 2-3 guns to HG weight with 3" forearms. They were in the mid 20 lb range.

Plus I know of no one who goes head to head with a HG and wins all the time, especially here in VA. Maybe once in a blue moon. Clearly exception rather than the rule. I would love to see the match reports of the five at every club that go head to head with LG and win routinely. Anyone got 4-5 reports that show that is true?

Third, a muzzle brake will not increase attendance. We are talking about the number of people who show up at a match and only shoot one match.

It will increase the number of LG shooters with only one gun who opt out of HG because they do not want to take their brake off and shoot with an untuned load. That is proven by the fact that HG attendance is lower at every match for every club. Absolutely no disputing that fact. That is money clubs are leaving on the plate by clubs that are struggling to survive. Any club officer would tell you that they need all the money that they can get to survive.

Of course a muzzle brake makes a LG easier to shoot. It also makes it stay in tune with the load. However, it clearly does not make it on the average anywhere remotely close to equal a top HG and again undisputably much slower. ergo advantage the HG still.

WHAT IS THE REAL FEAR HERE?

Agree allowing muzzle brakes on HG should be the real agenda item. However, it is grossly naive to believe that the two issues are not directly and inherently related. I do not see it passing under the present system either, which IMO is totally relevant to the agenda item and process. A broken agenda voting process clearly means the system is broke.

You have to get 25 signatures; you have to hope it even gets out of the LR committee, (not the current committee but we have seen items stopped in committee). You have to hope that the LR committee recommends approval and not stand and say we recommend disapproval and the same person immediately say " I make a motion that his item be disapproved and voted on now" to cut off any discussion with another member jumping up with a second immediately. This cuts off any reasonable discussion of the agenda item for a fair vote and ensures failure. That has happened more than once and the item is normally shot down by the 2%. I know you do not attend that meeting, but that is and how the way the actual process works.

BH
 
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The Hoovers always shot 16.5 lb. light guns against the heavy guns, when they were winning.

No one wins all the time in any class.

If it's undisputable that a shooter doesn't want to remove his muzzle brake because of tuning, then all he has to do is put a thread protector cap, of the same weight, on his threads and go shooting. I take mine off and win without additional tuning. If a shooter doesn't want to take his brake off and shoot in the heavy class, I'll just bet that someone has told him that 10 shots will burn up his barrel. I do know of guys who don't want to compete outside of their class, because they think that they don't have a chance of winning.

No a light gun isn't equal, all the time to a heavy gun. That's why we have two classes and light gun is included in the heavy gun class. Should we not let the light guns compete against the heavys?

For a rule to be changed, there must be a very good reason. Please state your reason for allowing muzzle brakes on light guns in the heavy class. If it's for attendance purposes then it's not a very good reason because light guns are not excluded now.

Fear? I sold my heavy gun six years ago and only use one rifle in both classes. I get lucky now and then.
 
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Guys,

Change can be good and change can be bad. Usually if it is bad, steps can be taken to fix the change. IBS rules do allow for this. If an agenda item is passed, it is employed on a trial basis for the upcoming season. A mail in ballot with the temporary rules on it is sent to every IBS member, this will vote the rule change in permanently or out.

Bounty Hunter is right about the "2%" voting the agenda items in or out, but if a shooter is worried about that they need to show up at the winter IBS meeting. I have seen a sharp increase of attendees at the meeting if there was an axe to grind before, it can happen again and will happen again. I know that now we have clubs farther out west than we did before, and this is something that the IBS will need to adress in the future, but for now that is the way it is. I understand that traveling is expensive, and may not fit into many shooters plans, but, don't forget about proxy votes. There are many ways to get things done if something is important to you.

As far as the brakes being allowed in HG. I could care less one way or the other, but, I would ( and was in the past ) against a rule that would allow guns that pass the rules to be Light Guns to use muzzlebrakes in HG. As Bob said, it needs to be a HG rule to allow brakes, period. But one thing to think about though...a silencer/suppressor does not classify as a muzzlebrake, but reduces recoil better than a muzzlebrake...hmmmm...

Now having said all that, I would also like to put my personal opinion out there. I really feel that the IBS 1000yd game has had enough rule changes for a while, and we really should give things a few years to settle out. I am on the LR rules committee, but this is ONLY a personal feeling of mine, not the committee's.

---------Jeff
 
Ok guys I don't use a brake, but am not against anyone using one in any class as long as it isn't a clam shell or doesn't blow my hair to one side every time they shoot. This is what I fought so hard for when I was President of the PA. club. We don't need any restrictions on any of the guns light or heavy, as long as they're on sand bags shoot the damn things and make me a believer. If what you think you have done made a difference in the way the gun shoots then GOD bless you. I've seen all kinds of contraptions shot at different ranges, some people didn't seem to like, but OH Well, never kept me from competing against them, loved it when I did beat them. So just bring it and have a Good Time. At the present time I'm shooting a 300 WSM without a brake, it weighs 15.3 lbs.

Joe SAlt
 
Here is an additional agenda item for muzzlebrake to be permitted in HG class. Thi is an agenda item from a previous attempt.

Jerrys petition is only to allow LGs to shoot in HG class with their muzzlebrake.

the agenda item I posted is to ALL guns in the HG class to use a muzzlebrake.

You can vote on either or both. At the winter meeting, if the vote is to allow all guns in HG to use a muzzlebrake, then Jerrys agenda item becomes a moot point as any LG can shoot with a muzzlebrake.

Proceed with both agenda items and see which one if any gets passed at the Winter meeting in Jan.

send signed sheets to Jerry.

BH
 

Attachments

  • 2010 AGENDA Item #1.doc
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